JULY 31
There are 33 messages totalling 1478 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Another take on retakes (5)
2. seating and learning names
3. Natural consequences-help needed (3)
4. lesson plan books (3)
5. Re-taking tests and grading issues (3)
6. Reply to Matt's questions
7. power of verbs
8. substitute plans (2)
9. lesson plan books - substitute plans
10. Teaming
11. To rehash a test or not (8)
12. To rehash a test or not - clarification (2)
13. Marzano's books
14. Grading
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 06:28:51 -0500
From: "RATZEL, MARSHA"
Subject: Another take on retakes
I was wondering what you might think of something that I've done in the
past. I've required students to "qualify" to take the test. It's
sort of a pre-emptive retake system. By qualify I mean, students have to
show me that they are ready to take my assessment.
That might mean completing a study guide, a mini-conference with me or even
participating in a class discussion...many, many different forms. When I
become convinced they know their stuff, then I "let" them take
the quiz or test. If they aren't ready, then they come in for extra study
sessions held during Team Time or the structured study halls, I might partner
them with a peer tutor or have them re-do the prep work necessary to be
ready. I guess I have sort of viewed this more like you would preparing
to take the driver's license test.
It's really worked for me. And, I know this isn't what we're talking about,
when I partner this with pre-assessing and testing out of units if you already
know the material, I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to getting
students to focus on learning rather than just the grade. (It's probably
because I'm an easy grader in that if you know the material, I give an A
no matter when you learned it.)
Redoing daily work is a whole other matter. In this arena I'm pretty rigid
because once I know what a student is capable of producing, I try to hold
them to their personal best at all time. A qualifier....if there's something
going on that would really hold them back like personal stuff or they're
sick....then I modify to fit the situation. My parents have been very supportive
of this and when I work closely with them, they are a great source of help
in getting kids to work closer to their potential. Parents are delighted
when I talk about this at Back to School Night and call me to make sure
they're helping. Only a few do the work for their kids and usually I can
get those parents to see that really they're shortchanging their kiddo if
I teach them how to help their student without doing it. Typically after
mid-September, most students give up and really work up to their personal
best because they'd rather only have to do the work once!!!! The ones that
don't probably need the extra love and support anyway, so I don't mind working
with them to learn how to hold themselves to that standard. I won't say
that I can get all 120 kids on a team to always do this, but I am amazed
that a big majority do buy-in.
marsha
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:16:08 -0400
From: Isabel Wiggins
Subject: Re: Another take on retakes
Thanks to all who have replied to my original post yesterday about
allowing students to retake tests. I am sorting through a lot of
philosophical issues behind the daily routines and am very grateful to
have found this listserv (the main one and this one). You've given me
lots to think about. (I taught for 16 years, then took a break for
about 15 years, and am now teaching math again. I love it!)
Marsha, I was interested in knowing more about your mention of "redoing
daily work". Are you saying that you permit/encourage/demand redoing
daily work it its not up to the student's personal best? Specifically
what suggestions do you give parents to get kids to work closer to their
potential?
Isabella Wiggins
RATZEL, MARSHA wrote:
>Redoing daily work is a whole other matter. In this arena I'm pretty
rigid because once I know what a student is capable of producing, I try
to hold them to their personal best at all time. A qualifier....if there's
something going on that would really hold them back like personal stuff
or they're sick....then I modify to fit the situation. My parents have been
very supportive of this and when I work closely with them, they are a great
source of help in getting kids to work closer to their potential. Parents
are delighted when I talk about this at Back to School Night and call me
to make sure they're helping. Only a few do the work for their kids and
usually I can get those parents to see that really they're shortchanging
their kiddo if I teach them how to help their student without doing it.
Typically after mid-September, most students give up and really work up
to their personal best because they'd rather only have to do the work once!!!!
The ones that don't probabl
y
> need the extra love and support anyway, so I don't mind working with
them to learn how to hold themselves to that standard. I won't say that
I can get all 120 kids on a team to always do this, but I am amazed that
a big majority do buy-in.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 05:46:28 -0700
From: Carolyn Beitzel
Subject: Re: seating and learning names
CRW Pup wrote:
>Rick - that's the beauty of the alpha-by-first-name system - unless
a kid
>is named Zach Zygote, or Alan Aardvark, etc. etc., they're probably
going
>to get seated differently from the way they're accustomed to under
>alpha-by-last-name rules. I find it more useful than using last names
>because I'm not calling them by their last names. I can learn those
after
>a week or two or three. I think Carolyn was talking about using the
>first-name method instead of the last-name method.
Rick and Liz - yep I was talking about first name alpha order.
Carolyn Beitzel
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 06:34:13 -0700
From: Carolyn Beitzel
Subject: Re: Another take on retakes
Marsha, in real time what does this look like? For example, if I am teaching
a unit on the Constitution and I have it planned for 10 days with an assessment
on the 11th. How does your idea fit in? Keep in mind that on day 12 I have
to move on to something else.
Now, of course, this is rigid and I am more flexible in real life. But,
I am not grasping how some can be ready and some not and what are you doing
with them all at the same time? If say 5 are ready to take the assessment
and the rest are not, what do you do with those 5 as you are still teaching
the others? Is there a deadline on your assessment or is it an ongoing forever
kind of thing? What if someone is never ready?
COuld you please give me an actual scenario where you used this. Thanks.
"RATZEL, MARSHA" wrote:
I was wondering what you might think of something that I've done in the
past. I've required students to "qualify" to take the test. It's
sort of a pre-emptive retake system. By qualify I mean, students have to
show me that they are ready to take my assessment.
That might mean completing a study guide, a mini-conference with me or even
participating in a class discussion...many, many different forms. When I
become convinced they know their stuff, then I "let" them take
the quiz or test. If they aren't ready, then they come in for extra study
sessions held during Team Time or the structured study halls, I might partner
them with a peer tutor or have them re-do the prep work necessary to be
ready. I guess I have sort of viewed this more like you would preparing
to take the driver's license test.
It's really worked for me. And, I know this isn't what we're talking about,
when I partner this with pre-assessing and testing out of units if you already
know the material, I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to getting
students to focus on learning rather than just the grade. (It's probably
because I'm an easy grader in that if you know the material, I give an A
no matter when you learned it.)
Redoing daily work is a whole other matter. In this arena I'm pretty rigid
because once I know what a student is capable of producing, I try to hold
them to their personal best at all time. A qualifier....if there's something
going on that would really hold them back like personal stuff or they're
sick....then I modify to fit the situation. My parents have been very supportive
of this and when I work closely with them, they are a great source of help
in getting kids to work closer to their potential. Parents are delighted
when I talk about this at Back to School Night and call me to make sure
they're helping. Only a few do the work for their kids and usually I can
get those parents to see that really they're shortchanging their kiddo if
I teach them how to help their student without doing it. Typically after
mid-September, most students give up and really work up to their personal
best because they'd rather only have to do the work once!!!! The ones that
don't probably
need the extra love and support anyway, so I don't mind working with them
to learn how to hold themselves to that standard. I won't say that I can
get all 120 kids on a team to always do this, but I am amazed that a big
majority do buy-in.
marsha
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:08:51 -0400
From: morton
Subject: Natural consequences-help needed
Love the book, Rick; I am looking forward to trying to get across the power
(and concept) of verbs by having students try to converse without them-what
a
great idea.
Iíve especially taken note of the ìConsequencesî postings
in this weekís
discussion since that is where I need the most help. Iíd like to
go back to
that thread, if you donít mind.
I need ideas for suitable consequences; what was the buzz phrase a few (well,
maybe more than a few-time flies) years ago? Was it natural consequences?
The
idea that the "punishment" fits the crime. I do miss my memory
:). Rick had
some in his consequences reply to Heather and Iím hoping for some
that fit this
situation. Anyway, hereís the scenario and the problem that is bothering
me the
most:
I teach an almost totally self-contained 7/8 class in a very small school
so I
have all my students for two years. My question centers around a boy whoíll
be
in 8th grade this year; last year he was, and this year he will be, the
overall
brightest student in the class. He would be a model student (interested,
articulate, does excellent work, loves to read) except for one thing: he
cannot
keep his mouth shut when it comes to the activities of other students-he
always
has a remark about their deficiencies. If someone answers or asks a question,
he has a snide comment about what they said or how they said it. If someone
shares information about their activities, he interrupts with some kind
of put
down, etc., etc., etc.
Weíve discussed it, he agrees that itís disrespectful to the
others, but he
continues to do the same thing. Actually, I think the agreement is just
lip
service and that he has no intention of changing his behavior. Notes on
progress reports and report cards explaining this as the reasons for his
check
minuses in respect, etc., arenít making a difference either.
If I canít turn this around somehow, I expect the situation to be
worse this
year as the incoming seventh grade will give him lots of fodder.
Is this a situation where writing down what he did, should have done, will
do
in the future to regain our trust would be of any help? And, if so, how
many
times would you do the writing thing before trying something else? And what
would the something else be?
The especially aggravating thing about this is that the whole school is
supposedly zero-tolerance for any type of harassment. Weíve had to
do a lot of
educating about what constitutes harassment; as you know, generally
perpetrators donít see this or ìjust teasingî as harassment.
But what is a
suitable consequence for this type of harassment?
Thanks,
Margaret
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:30:15 EDT
From: Rjpjpp
Subject: Re: lesson plan books
I have found having to submit the lesson plans each week to be very
cumbersome. Last year was my first year as a teacher and it was so hard
to find the
time to do everything. Having to have those plans on the principal's desk
each
Monday a.m. was one more thing to worry about. I ended up doing my best
to
have 5 days of plans written and then falling back on my system of
rewriting/erasing as the week progressed. The principal's rationale for
these lesson plans
is that if I have an unplanned absence the substitute will have lesson plans
to follow. However, since mine change so much this really won't work for
my
classes. You can almost be assured that by Wednesday or Thursday I have
strayed from what I turned into the office. How does everybody else plan
for
substitutes? I'm planning on preparing a "Substitute Folder" with
lots of
procedural info and emergency activities. Can you give me some ideas for
what I should
include? I have a 6 year old and a 4 year old and I'm alreayd worrying what
I'm going to do when/if they get sick this year. Luckily, my husband can
help
on some days if they are sick but I know there may be times that I'll have
to
be out with a sick child.
Thanks,
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:31:48 -0700
From: CWK
Subject: Re: Another take on retakes
Marsha!
What a thoughtful and wonderful assessment process. You are truly a
teacher who uses assessment to support student achievement rather than
to sort them into groups of can do, can't do and won't do.
I would like to share your message with two groups of teachers I will
work with this month. I would like to make you come alive for them by
describing you, your students and your school. If you are comfortable
with this please contact me at cwilsonk@pacbell.net. I will not give
them your email or any information that would be intrusive.
Carolyn Wilson Koerschen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:40:23 -0400
From: Matt
Subject: Re-taking tests and grading issues
I have also struggled with the re-take issue. On one hand, I'm very big
on
students being responsible and prepared the first time around. If they know
the retake option is there, they are likely to not put forth their best
effort the first time. On the other hand, there are the students who do
try
their hardest and still fail to grasp certain concepts.
In the past I occassionally offered retakes. I allowed students who scored
below 70% to retake, but they had to come in at lunch or before school or
whenever as long as it was not during class time. I then averaged the two
scores together.
The recent postings have me really thinking on how to handle this issue.
I
agree that the student who scored 93% should be allowed to retake if the
student who got a 53% is allowed. If the first student wants to do even
better, than who am I to stifle their interest?
However, they do need to have some accountability. I think the compulsory
attendance at a review session is a great idea. You can't just show up and
do a retake, you have to do something first that demonstrates your
committment. Otherwise 100 kids might show up for the retake just to get
out of something else.
My questions are these:
What do you do after kids take the first test, but before the retake? Do
you hand back all the tests and go over all the answers?
How do you design the retake in relation to the first test? I often find
it
difficult to write the original test, much less a second version that isn't
simply a reshuffling of the first. What's the best way to do it?
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:22:07 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: Another take on retakes
MARSHA - Wow, this is a great idea -- the qualifying pre-assessments. Does
it take
more energy, time, and paperwork to pull it off, or is it about the
same? -- Rick Wormeli
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:22:10 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: Natural consequences-help needed
Hi Margaret -- This is a great question. I hope others will chime in when
they get a chance. They may have already, but I haven't read all the
postings yet today.
Potential responses for students who chronically put down others and make
snide comments:
1. Videotape him and watch it with him privately helping him to analyze
his
effect on his own learning and that of others -- invite parents to join
the
conversation and viewing
2. Removal from social situations ('my last choice, a still a choice)
3. Have him read and reflect on multiple short stories and novels about
kids
who are different and how they have to struggle with individuals who put
them down or with their own negative behavior. I highly recommend The Acorn
People (Jones) and Touching Spirit Bear(Mikaelson), among others.
4. Use simulations for character education or teacher-advisory times in
which he is at a disadvantage to others, but also make sure at some point
he
is in an advantaged position and must make helpful responses.
5. Service learning -- find something in which he interacts with disabled
individuals or even abled individuals but he can only succeed if he is
sensitive to others.
6. Team-building activities, such as Ropes Course or Project Adventure
activities (Kendall-Hunt has great books on this for schools and camps)
7. The written analysis of his behavior that you mention and we mentioned
earlier will work. Make sure to focus on the section on how he is going
to
rebuild the class's trust each time he breaks it.
8. Ask the student what would work
9. Behavior modification plan -- He gets points toward something desired
for
each period he's courteous. ('A next-to-last choice for me)
10. With parent permission, talk with his coaches, pastors and/or rabbi's
about the problem. Have all the adults in his life be on the same page with
helping him.
11. Cultivate a strong relationship between him and one particular adult
in
the building if it's not you. That adult can mentor him through this.
12. Counseling sessions with someone in your guidance department (if you
have one) that might help him see that he can be accepted and even thrive
without interacting so negatively.
13. I also recommend the book, What To Do With the Kid Who by Kay Burke
(Skylight Professional). It has many practical strategies for teaching kids
just like this.
14. Consistently applied and clear punishment for each time the student
makes such a choice to abuse others.
15. If it's serious enough, invite the parents to get him a physical. At
least then you would know if it is a manifestation of ADD or Tourette's
Syndrome, or if a change in diet would help. For example, a lot of proteins
for breakfast has helped unruly classes settle down and attend to learning
(Pat Wolfe, Brain Matters, ASCD, I believe). The proteins increase the
brain's production of serotonin and dopamine which help with mental acuity
and being well reasoned.
16. Maturation. Some kids go through a rough couple of years but they
finally grow a bit and get tired of always cutting down the world. It takes
tenacity and patience on our part and the parts of his classmates, but time
to grow is a part of it.
'Anyone have other ideas? -- Rick Wormeli
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:42:22 -0400
From: Isabel Wiggins
Subject: Reply to Matt's questions
Matt,
This year, once I started the retake policy, I just handed back tests
without going over every problem. I found the students were happy about
that--going over every problems can get long and uninteresting to those
who had the problem right on the test (even for some who had a lot
wrong). I learned that no one really valued going over the test, except
me.
To make corrections, students could work on their own (only a good idea
if they just made careless errors), with a parent, friend, or me. Some
really diligent ones came in for help before school or at lunchtime. In
my school, 8:00-8:20 or lunch hour are the times for extra help. Some
who relied on help at home came in for the alternate problems with more
wrong answers as corrections. I like the idea of having one or two
review sessions at set times.
To make the alternate test questions, I basically altered the numbers in
the problems or asked a question a slightly different way. Remember, I
teach math--this method probably wouldn't work for history or English.
Then I directed them to do the problems numbered the same as the ones
they had missed on the original test.
I did not require retakes and there were students with low grades who
weren't interested in the retake process at all. Have to find another
way to reach them.
The retake process probably benefited about 20% of my students, so it's
definitely worthwhile. Some of the most motivated test retakers were
those who scored 88% to 95% and wanted every point they could get. But
why not let them?
After reading the replies to my question, I'm still struggling with
giving them full credit for making corrections. I know with my own
children, I am appalled when they can get 10 extra points for having a
test signed. I will admit to letting students whose parents
requested a complete retake take a similar test and only including the
better test in my gradebook. Typically, this was a student who really
"blew" a test--someone who generally was a B+ student who scored
a 30%,
for example. Even with earning 1/2 credit they would have only had a 65%.
The whole grading thing is very murky.
Isabel Wiggins
Matt wrote:
>
>My questions are these:
>
>What do you do after kids take the first test, but before the retake?
Do
>you hand back all the tests and go over all the answers?
>
>How do you design the retake in relation to the first test? I often
find it
>difficult to write the original test, much less a second version that
isn't
>simply a reshuffling of the first. What's the best way to do it?
>
>
>Matt
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:37:31 -0400
From: Cossondra George
Subject: Re: Re-taking tests and grading issues
Rewriting a math test is perhaps easier than some other subjects because
I
can essentially just juggle the numbers around. I usually have a Test A
and
a Test B version anyway since my kids sit a 2 person tables. If this is
the
case, the student just takes the other version. Also, with math, even if
it
is the same test, the student still has to understand how to solve the
problems. I require them to show their work, obviously, anyway. I also liked
the idea of explaining your mistakes...
Cossondra George
Newberry Middle School
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:55:04 -0500
From: Lori
Subject: power of verbs
Margaret wrote:
Love the book, Rick; I am looking forward to trying to get across the power
(and concept) of verbs by having students try to converse without them-what
a great idea.
Our Title teacher had students work in groups to rewrite The Three Little
Pigs without using verbs. Got the point across, and they came up with some
really funny stuff.
Lori
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:02:49 -0500
From: Lori
Subject: substitute plans
Jacqueline wrote:
> How does everybody else plan for substitutes? I'm planning on preparing
a
"Substitute Folder" with lots of procedural info and emergency
activities.
Can you give me some ideas for what I should include?
In 4th and 5th grade, I had a sub box that had worksheets that covered every
subject area. In my sub folder, I told the sub to totally ignore my regular
plans and to pull whatever they felt comfortable doing. The sub folder
contained my schedule and important information about the school and
specific students. That way, I didn't have to come in if I was unexpectedly
sick. This worked well for true teachers. However, I had "babysitters"
that pulled every worksheet in the box and expected the kids to do them
on
their own. In spite of the fact that the sub plans explicitly told them
NOT
to do this and that they needed to go over things with the kids.
I am intrigued with Rick's idea from the book of having projects that the
students can do in the sub folder. I'm going to look into that futher this
year.
If I knew I was going to be gone, I wrote out very detailed plans, and left
the books and materials on my desk with the plans in the order that they
would be needed.
Lori
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:05:59 -0400
From: Mendy Gannon
Subject: Re: lesson plan books - substitute plans
>>>>>I'm planning on preparing a "Substitute Folder"
with lots of
procedural info and emergency activities. Can you give me some ideas
for what I should include? I have a 6 year old and a 4 year old and I'm
alreayd worrying what I'm going to do when/if they get sick this year.
Luckily, my husband can help on some days if they are sick but I know
there may be times that I'll have to be out with a sick child. Thanks,
Jacqueline
Jacqueline,
I have a binder behind my desk that is labeled SUBSTITUTE SURVIVAL KIT
in large letters. It has the following information, prefaced by an
introductory letter:
Contents of the binder:
1. "Teacher Pack" - Pens and pencils for your use, band-aids and
cough drops, stickers for the children, behavior referrals, "caught
being good" certificates, change for the drink/snack machines (located
downstairs of the main office)
2. A/B Calendar
3. Class/Duty Schedule
4. General Policies/Map of School
5. Discipline/Reward Suggestions/Magic Clipboard
6. Blue Card/Class Rosters-Seating Charts/Class Descriptions and
Special Notes
7. Lesson Plans by Day
8. Emergency Work/Plans
I've created a substitute version of my "magic clipboard" weekly
grading
system, and it has greatly improved my communication with my
substitutes.
I'd be happy to send you a copy of anything you'd like if you send me a
note offlist.
Mendy Gannon
Lady's Island Middle School
Sixth Grade
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:40:25 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: substitute plans
Hi -- Page 151-152 of Day One and Beyond has a list of what should be in
those sub folders. Submitting your lesson plans every week just so
principals have plans to give subs in case we're gone as was mentioned in
one of the earlier postings is really, really frustrating. It's very
insensitive to teachers. As long as we have a few days' worth of emergency
sub plans on file at the front office, we're fine. The principal's better
use of time is helping teachers or departments identify what would make
for
successful, stand alone, sub plans that are substantive -- that result in
teaching, not babysitting, students while the teacher is away.
I like Lori's ideas below. We can spend a half a day or one evening putting
together great sub plans regarding our subjects and then breathe easier
the
rest of the year. We know those plans are there, but we don't use them,
if
we can help it. I've had some emergency sub plans go unused for five years
straight because I was always able to prepare something for students related
to the current lessons and get them in to school, even if I was sick. Each
of those years, I just glanced through the emergency plans to make sure
they
were still up to date and the ready to go. I didn't have to reinvent
anything.
-- Rick Wormeli
-----Original Message-----
Jacqueline wrote:
> How does everybody else plan for substitutes? I'm planning on preparing
a
"Substitute Folder" with lots of procedural info and emergency
activities.
Can you give me some ideas for what I should include?
In 4th and 5th grade, I had a sub box that had worksheets that covered every
subject area. In my sub folder, I told the sub to totally ignore my regular
plans and to pull whatever they felt comfortable doing. The sub folder
contained my schedule and important information about the school and
specific students. That way, I didn't have to come in if I was unexpectedly
sick. This worked well for true teachers. However, I had "babysitters"
that pulled every worksheet in the box and expected the kids to do them
on
their own. In spite of the fact that the sub plans explicitly told them
NOT
to do this and that they needed to go over things with the kids.
I am intrigued with Rick's idea from the book of having projects that the
students can do in the sub folder. I'm going to look into that futher this
year.
If I knew I was going to be gone, I wrote out very detailed plans, and left
the books and materials on my desk with the plans in the order that they
would be needed.
Lori
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:41:09 -0700
From: LINDA WHEELER
Subject: Teaming
"In your first year of teaching, try to do one
successful integration with one other teacher in the
first semester. Working with more than one teacher may
be overwhelming as you try to master curriculum and
discover your professional self (Wormeli, p.113)."
I will be a first year teacher for an ESL pull-out
program. This means I'll be working with the 7th and
8th grade teams for all subjects. I realize the
importance of working well with both of these teams,
and the support that can be found in good
collaboration. Also, good collaboration with the teams
is critical in order for me to best help the ESL
students to be successful and included in the
mainstream.
I'm looking for any advice anyone has to offer. Also, I
would appreciate any helpful feedback from classroom
teachers regarding what they like to see most in a
resource teacher.
Thanks,
Linda
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:17:54 -0500
From: Paulette Romano
Subject: To rehash a test or not
Isabel wrote. . .
"going over every problem can get long and uninteresting to those who
had the problem right on the test (even for some who had a lot wrong). I
learned that no one really valued going over the test, except me."
This is an interesting comment and a dilemma I have struggle with also.
I
guess this is a practice that I've come to adhere to through the years,
but
is it really necessary? I always assume that students want to know what
the
right answer is if they get it wrong, but maybe they don't. I don't always
give retakes in English class, but when I do the retake is different from
the original. It sure would save a lot of valuable class time not to go
over
a test. What do the rest of you do?
Paulette
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:09:38 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: To rehash a test or not
Hi -- Please don't give up on giving students feedback on tests. The
positive effects are worth it. Just make sure it's timely. Robert Marzano
(in Classroom Instruction that Works, ASCD) shows a positive effect size
of
0.78 if classmates give students feedback, 0.83 if the teacher gives
feedback. An assignment's (or a test's) positive effect size is only 0.28
if there is no feedback. Here's the kicker in this: 0.25 effect size is
instructionally insignificant, 1.0 is maximum positive impact. We're
wasting everyone's time, ours included, to give students assignments, tests,
projects, etc. for which there is no feedback. Every time we design a test
or an assignment, then, we have to plan how we're going to give feedback
in
the same planning breath. If we stop giving feedback on tests, we miss a
major opportunity to teach. We can find compelling ways to give students'
feedback.
Getting back to feedback's timely nature, my students put more of themselves
into their tests, projects, and assignments when they know they are going
to
get it back within a day or two or three. When the assignments, projects,
and tests are so long that I can't get them graded and returned for a week
or more, they don't put in as much effort and depth. Consider shortening
tests, projects, and assignments in order to maximize feedback's impact.
--
Rick Wormeli
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:41:46 -0400
From: Cossondra George
Subject: Re: To rehash a test or not
Rick - by feedback, do you mean that each test should be gone over in class,
or can corrected tests, complete w/ comments on mistakes work?
I too struggle with using class time to go over a test but I take a real
effort not just to mark wrong answers but give "feedback" on an
individaul
basis on the returned papers. I also make the effort to always return papers
the next day and I do allow time for questions and we go over any specific
questions students may ask.
Are you saying it is more effective for student learning when we go over
it
again as a class?
Thanks for the clarification - I got a bit lost in your answer for some
reason!
Cossondra George
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:48:21 -0500
From: Paulette Romano
Subject: Re: To rehash a test or not
Thanks Rick for affirming what my gut instinct was originally telling me.
Timely feedback is definitely worth the effort. I actually have Marzano's
book on my pile of "to reads" before school starts. You've just
given me an
incentive to pick it up! I'm loving all of this discussion this week! Thank
you!
Paulette
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:08:31 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: To rehash a test or not
Hi Cossondra -- Yes to your first question. We need to find ways for
students to understand their errors and to improve their mastery. If we
give tests, return them with grades, but offer no opportunities for students
to interact with errors and misconceptions, then the impact of the
assessment as an instructional tool is significantly diminished. Good
assessment instructs, and good instruction assesses. They're inseparable.
(I apologize for repeating this -- I know you know this already. But just
in case....) Assess comes from "assidere," which means, "to
sit beside."
Assessment is a coaching/nurturing tool, not stop-everything-and-test tool.
We can live up to its promise by always making sure we have a way in which
students get feedback on their products -- tests included. There are
creative ways to review homework assignments, tests, and other student
products in class that aren't just asking students to compare their papers
with the answers posted on the overhead.
As far as whether it's done individually or with the whole class, I agree
it's hard to figure out how to do it. If we go over the whole thing and
only a few students really need it, then we're wasting time. In those
cases, I would do an anchor activity with the larger class and pull those
students who need more specific feedback out of the anchor activity for
a
while to review it with them.
I think we need to facilitate formal interactions between our students and
our written comments on tests and assignments, otherwise they are not
considered. Most of my students look at the grade only and don't really
reflect on that hopefully cogent comment in the margin. So what do we do
to
get them to reflect on those comments? How about choosing two comments to
which they write a response back to me? How about asking students to share
with one another how they would improve their understanding of the topic
if
they had a chance to do it over? How about requiring students to redo or
rewrite whatever it is they missed correctly as homework? If it's a lot,
they only have to do three? 'Just brainstorming here. The bottom line is
to not leave it to students' own maturity to seriously consider those
comments. Given their busy lives and many and alternative priorities, they
most often will not reflect on the feedback. As the adults in their
academic lives, we have to prompt them to do it.
Does this makes sense or did I confuse things further? I'm good at that.
:-) - Rick Wormeli
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:11:36 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: To rehash a test or not
Hi Paulette -- Thanks. Marzano's book is a terrific read! A number of
schools use it as a book study. The handbook that you can get to go with
it
is full of practical materials, too. Not to add more to your plate, but
he
has a wonderful new one along the same lines: What Works in Schools (ASCD,
2003). It has the research and practicalities of several other school
factors besides instruction, but he also has more on instruction. It's gets
better and better, eh? :-) -- Rick Wormeli
-----Original Message-----
Thanks Rick for affirming what my gut instinct was originally telling me.
Timely feedback is definitely worth the effort. I actually have Marzano's
book on my pile of "to reads" before school starts. You've just
given me an
incentive to pick it up! I'm loving all of this discussion this week! Thank
you!
Paulette
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:22:40 -0400
From: Isabel Wiggins
Subject: Re: To rehash a test or not - clarification
Rick,
Just to clarify...
I write personal comments on each test paper and get them back to the
students the next day usually. I also allow a couple of minutes for
the kiddos to look over their papers and ask me questions individually
(as I circulate among the desks). They can see me after class for a
more in depth conversation. I just don't work out the answer to every
question on the board. But I'm open to another way to do it.
Isabel
Rick Wormeli wrote:
>Hi -- Please don't give up on giving students feedback on tests. The
>positive effects are worth it. Just make sure it's timely.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:30:28 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: To rehash a test or not - clarification
Hi Isabel -- This sounds great. Some times they might benefit from a more
formal interaction, but I often do exactly as you describe here. It's
effective. For those that don't have time, courage, or inclination to see
you for more in-depth conversation and they really need it, how do you
facilitate those conversations happening?
I agree that doing every problem or question response for every test is
worth the time. Having students confer for a few moments in small groups
and have each group choose two questions or problems for class discussion
is
one way to narrow the focus.
FYI: I'm checking out for a few hours to run some errands, but I'll be back
later this evening. Keep the great ideas flowing. I'm learning a lot!
-- Rick Wormeli
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:43:04 EDT
From: PStef
Subject: Re: lesson plan books
Hi, Jacqueline
I have taught in several different schools and each administrator has his/her
own requirements for lesson plans. There is some truth about having them
prepared for substitutes. However, I believe the real problem is the fact
many
teachers "wing it" every day if they do not have mandated lesson
plans. That
makes for a really long day and very unorganized classroom. And the most
important thing is that the discipline problems rise sharply if the teacher
is
unorganized.
The school in which I am teaching now does not require lesson plans each
week. There are maybe a few weeks in the year that we have to turn in lesson
plans for "documentation". I will say though when I taught at
the schools that
required them each week, I was much more prepared. I am in my 13th year
now and
I automatically write my lesson plans. It just keeps me organized. They
may
not 'look good" but they serve the purpose.
As for substitute folders -- they are a life saver. I write and save a
generic letter on my computer explaining my schedule and rules such as going
to the
bathroom, to the library, to the locker....... Then, when I know who my
sub
is I go in and add anything I need that particular sub to know. For
emergencies, I compile worksheets and such in a folder and keep it in the
same place
all the time. Then when I call a sub for that emergency I can tell them
where
to look for the folder. I leave a copy of the letter in that folder too.
I
don't have a problem getting subs because I always keep things prepared
for
them, even in emergencies.
The last thing you need is to worry about a sub when your children are sick.
Good Luck
Marilyn Stefani
Surfside Middle School
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:54:16 -0500
From: "Rick S."
Subject: Re: Re-taking tests and grading issues
Isabel
What I do is let them correct the test. Any question they get correct on
the re-do earns them 1/2 of the points that I took away originally. I also
do not let them earn any more that an 80 after corrections are added to
the
grade from when they took the test.
~Rick Speigner
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:59:25 -0500
From: Paulette Romano
Subject: Marzano's books
Rick,
The handbook with practical materials sounds like a great accompaniment.
Actually, my principal bought both Classrooms That Work and What Works in
Schools for the whole faculty to read this summer. Hearing your seal of
approval validates it even more in my eyes. I have grown children and can
spend a lot of time on my own professional development (which by the way
is
neverending!). I don't know how teachers with young families do it!
Paulette
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:05:53 -0400
From: Cossondra George
Subject: Re: To rehash a test or not
Much clearer - thanks Rick...
I like the idea having them respond to my comments - I often also wonder
if
they ever take the time to read them, especially those marginal students
who
really benefit from feedback. This would assure they have looked the test
over and reflected not only on their mistakes but my hints of what went
wrong and how to show improvement - maybe I can combine the redo and respond
to comment/reflect on mistakes.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:17:29 -0500
From: Nicole Foster
Subject: Re: To rehash a test or not
How about passing out the test, giving the students a few moments to
look at your comments, and then ask them to tell you what number thay
want to go over with you?
Nicole Foster
Isabel wrote. . .
"going over every problem can get long and uninteresting to those
who
had the problem right on the test (even for some who had a lot wrong).
I
learned that no one really valued going over the test, except me."
This is an interesting comment and a dilemma I have struggle with also.
I
guess this is a practice that I've come to adhere to through the years,
but
is it really necessary? I always assume that students want to know what
the
right answer is if they get it wrong, but maybe they don't. I don't
always
give retakes in English class, but when I do the retake is different
from
the original. It sure would save a lot of valuable class time not to go
over
a test. What do the rest of you do?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:18:45 -0500
From: "Rick S."
Subject: Re: Natural consequences-help needed
Sorry that I don't have a viable solution. We just had an in-service where
this was listed as a form of bullying. It should be addressed as such. If
you have your principal's backing, I would send him to the office with a
referral for verbal bullying. If the principal backs you in this and treats
it as serious as it should be, he might even spend time in ISS if you school
uses that. I think the referral would possibly show him the seriousness
of
his offense as well as you stepped-up intolerance of his attitude of
superiority. I would thin that he really does not feel superior or he would
not need to lift himself up by putting other students down.
~Rick Speigner
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:03:36 -0400
From: winkler
Subject: Re: lesson plan books
"I will say though when I taught at the schools that
required them each week, I was much more prepared. I am in my 13th year
now
and
I automatically write my lesson plans. It just keeps me organized. They
may
not 'look good" but they serve the purpose."
We photocopy our plan books every two weeks, but it's done at the END of
the
two weeks. I, personally, don't feel that it is demeaning when done that
way since there is no pressure to worry about how my plans may change during
the upcoming week from what I "said" I would be doing; by the
time they are
turned in the plans have obviously already been through the revision process
(and they look it!). It's not a perfect system; in fact, I think that once
a month or every 9 weeks would suffice. But I find value in the process.
I've spent hours today updating my planbook template in MSWord; otherwise
I
just cannot stand all the time it takes to personalize all those blank
squares week after week after week to suit my quirks. =D
Joyce
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:43:23 -0400
From: Matt
Subject: Grading
I read the section in Rick's book on grading tonight. Another thing I have
been wrestling with is how to come up with the final grade. Should I use
total points or average various weighted categories? I have gone with the
categories method thusfar, but I've really been thinking about going with
total points. My first two years I weighted tests 35%, homework 35%,
projects 20%, and journal 10%. Year two changed slightly, and last year
I
went with Tests/Projects (combined) 50%, homework 40%, Participation 10%.
What do you think is better, overall points where each graded assignment
is
given a selected number of points where the grade is determined by points
received vs. points possible, or is going with weighted categories better?
Those of you who use total points, how do you decide how many points to
allot for each graded item? How many points is a test worth versus a daily
homework assignment?
I'm not just asking this of Rick, but everyone. Which method does everyone
use?
Thanks
Matt
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End of MWBOOKS Digest - 30 Jul 2003 to 31 Jul 2003 (#2003-5)
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Read 5th Day Messages - August 1