AUGUST 1
There are 18 messages totalling 806 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Grading (10)
2. grading systems (2)
3. Grading and Knowing My Audience
4. Giving students choices
5. Natural consequences
6. Re-taking tests and grading issues
7. Thanks Rick
8. Thanks and Farewell
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:28:05 -0400
From: Mendy Gannon
Subject: Re: Grading
I use weighted grades, partly because I've never been able to figure out
how to do a point system ;)
I have changed my weights over the years I've been teaching, and this
year they will be:
Participation/Preparedness 10%
Homework 20%
Papers/Projects/Performances 35%
Quizzes/Tests 35%
Mendy Gannon
Lady's Island Middle School
Sixth Grade Social Studies
-----Original Message-----
I read the section in Rick's book on grading tonight. Another thing I
have been wrestling with is how to come up with the final grade. Should
I use total points or average various weighted categories? I have gone
with the categories method thusfar, but I've really been thinking about
going with total points. My first two years I weighted tests 35%,
homework 35%, projects 20%, and journal 10%. Year two changed slightly,
and last year I went with Tests/Projects (combined) 50%, homework 40%,
Participation 10%.
What do you think is better, overall points where each graded assignment
is given a selected number of points where the grade is determined by
points received vs. points possible, or is going with weighted
categories better?
Those of you who use total points, how do you decide how many points to
allot for each graded item? How many points is a test worth versus a
daily homework assignment?
I'm not just asking this of Rick, but everyone. Which method does
everyone use?
Thanks
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:45:00 -0400
From: rick winkler
Subject: Re: Grading
> "Should I use total points or average various weighted categories?
I have
gone with the
> categories method thusfar, but I've really been thinking about going
with
> total points.
>
> What do you think is better, overall points where each graded assignment
is
> given a selected number of points where the grade is determined by
points
> received vs. points possible, or is going with weighted categories
better?"
Interesting, because that is exactly my situation; for the last two years
I've used weighted categories, but have been seriously considering switching
to points this year. One of my main reasons is that it would allow for
students to much more easily track their grades (and use math skills in
the
process), instead of having to rely on the "magical" computer
or lengthy
manual calculations. Not that I try to emphasize GRADES, but there is no
way to avoid the issue, either.
I use Gradekeeper; it allows for both methods and is simple and adaptable.
Last year I updated and printed out the gradebook on weekends, then entered
the next week's directly on that printout; it eliminated having to keep
a
manual gradebook. But I ended up using a lot of paper over the year.
If I switch to a point system, I'm thinking of going back to a manual 3-line
page I designed, on which I can easily/quickly manually enter, tally points,
track attendance. Then those points can easily be entered into Gradekeeper.
Sigh. That is double-work, but I really like sending at least 3 progress
reports home for parent signature each 9 weeks.
So I, too, am curious to hear the pros/cons of weighting vs. total points.
Also, what do you think about offering a few points (5-10) for students
who
have parents sign their progress reports and return them by the deadline?
In the past I've offered it as homework points, but in thinking it through,
isn't that a valid assessment for preparedness?
I found the entire conversation about retaking of tests to be excellent!
Joyce
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:31:14 -0700
From: Carolyn Beitzel
Subject: Re: Grading
Joyce, you bring up several valid points of which I too have been struggling
with. I have been doing exactly as you with weighted categories and have
found that it is difficult for the kids to maintain their own gradesheet
when there is lengthy calculations involved. So I am going to try total
points this year as well.
I am curious about your 3 line gradebook, can you explain it more? I have
seen 2 lines where you have the points on the top line then a running total
on the next.
I also use a computer grade program and found that I was using TONS of paper
as well. For me I don't think keeping a manual book is extra work as I did
that before - I would print out the blank gradebook with assignments from
the computer and as I graded the work put the grade onto the manual sheet
and then inputted it into the computer once a week.
I don't think there are really pros and cons to either, just a personal
preference. YOu can still weight your assignments using total points. For
example if your tests were weighted 40% of the entire grade then multiply
the points by four. Or you can make the total points for any assignment
the weight, for example if tests were 40% then have the test equal 40 points,
homework 20% or 20 points. By earning more points it automatically gives
it more weight. I am sure there are others who have a different system.
I hope they share.
Carolyn Beitzel
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:41:39 -0400
From: Isabel Wiggins
Subject: grading systems
Thanks, Rick, for the ideas for student reflection on test comments. I
found the entire discussion to be very helpful.
I'm also interested in the weighted grading vs student points out of
total possible points grading system. I, too, plan to switch to student
points out of total possible points system. It seems easier to
communicate to the parents and students and easier for the students to
keep their own tally. The weighting is actually built in by the number
of possible points given to any assignment. For example, if a
substantive project or test is worth 100 points, quizzes and smaller
activities might be worth 50 points, and homework 10 points. Other
assignments done in class in the process of learning and understanding
concepts might be worth 20 or 25 points. Figure out what assignments
are in a typical marking period (i.e. 100, 100, 100, 50, 50, 50, 50, 25,
25, 25, 25, 20, 20, 20, and 15 homeworks (10 each)). In this example,
the total is 810 points. The 100 point assignments (presumably tests or
large projects) represent 37% of the grade, the 50 point assignments
represent 25% of the grade, the 20/25 point assignments represent 20% of
the grade, and homework represents 18% of the grade. So you can embed
a similar weighting scale into this system by selecting relative point
values.
Well, didn't mean for this to get so long and detailed...
Isabella Wiggins
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:24:45 -0700
From: Melba Smithwick
Subject: Re: Grading
I've been around for a very long time, actually able (but not gonna) to
retire this year. I have tried weighting tests, 25%, 40% ect. Our district
even required us for a few years to weight performance standards assessments
50% and even that was futile. I have come to the conclusion after 29 years
of teaching 6th graders that they don't really understand the weighting
and the only people who care and become frustrated are the parents and the
teachers. Total points works best in our neck of the woods. Our district
has revamped the grading policy once again and we are back to total points.
Most of our teachers base most grades on 100%. Some start with 0 points
and kids build up to them, some start with 100 and deduct, and some award
less than 100 per assignment, build up from there or categorize each assignment,
get an average and average all categories. The key to students' success
is to post their averages weekly, teach them to review them each week, stay
on their case and
communicate with their parents often.
Melba Yvette Smithwick
Campus-Based Staff Developer
Corpus Christi ISD
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:25:23 -0500
From: Lori
Subject: Grading
And, then, to add another monkey wrench to the works...A question that has
been buzzing around some people in my district, do you give the student
the
average or what they're truly achieving at the end of the grading period.
If you had a kid that just didn't get place value, for instance, and scored
low on some assignments at the beginning of the grading period, but really
gets a handle on it at the end and truly understands it now, do you consider
those early assignments? It sure seems like there are way more questions
than answers for me these days!
Lori
----- Original Message -----
> I read the section in Rick's book on grading tonight. Another thing
I have
been wrestling with is how to come up with the final grade. Should I use
total points or average various weighted categories?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:25:53 -0400
From: Cossondra George
Subject: Re: grading systems
I simply grade each assignment as a percentage grade and record it as such.
Then daily work counts as a single grade, quizzes as double, tests/major
projects as triple - it is easy for the students to understand and average
their own grades. It is easy to use in PowerGrade or when calculating long
hand. It makes tests have more impact than a homework assignment - at the
beginning of any project I let the kids know what weight the grade has.
Cossondra George
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:33:37 -0700
From: Melba Smithwick
Subject: Re: Grading
Lori, in my opinion, what you decide to do with your student's grades is
up to you. Why not give that child a quiz or another assignment based on
the same material they did early on when they did not score well again and
replace those grades? Or you could simple not count the first few assignments
students do when learning the material for the first time. I always waited
until I felt the majority if not all of my students had learned the material
before I even considered taking a grade. We need to give our students time
to make mistakes. Some teachers, new and experienced, think that if the
kids do the work then it should be recorded. Not true; not everything needs
to go in. All work counts, it's just a matter of where the final grade ends
up. Kids always ask, "Will this count?" My response has always
been, "Does it matter? Will you not try your best to do this right?
I expect your very best effort every time you do something for me. If you
make a mistake or more, it's OK, bu
t it's
not OK to do less than your personal best."
Lori wrote:And, then, to add another monkey wrench to the works...A question
that has
been buzzing around some people in my district, do you give the student
the
average or what they're truly achieving at the end of the grading period.
If you had a kid that just didn't get place value, for instance, and scored
low on some assignments at the beginning of the grading period, but really
gets a handle on it at the end and truly understands it now, do you consider
those early assignments? It sure seems like there are way more questions
than answers for me these days!
Lori
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:48:07 -0400
From: Bill Ivey
Subject: Re: Grading
On Friday, Aug 1, 2003, at 11:24 America/New_York, Melba Smithwick
wrote:
> The key to students' success is to post their averages weekly, teach
> them to review them each week, stay on their case and
> communicate with their parents often.
>
Hi!
Nicely summed up. During the final month of school this year, I
designed a form to help my students review for the final exam. It began
with some reflective questions along the lines of:
1. What are my strengths in French?
2. What skills do I need to improve in French?
just to get them thinking.
Then, each night, they had to fill in a three part form along the lines
of:
1. What are my three goals for the evening (what three things do I
want to learn more solidly)?
2. What specifically did I do to make progress toward meeting those
three goals?
3. How much time did I spend?
I checked this form daily, and used it to stimulate discussions about
the advantages and disadvantages of different study methods, how to
determine when to keep plugging towards a goal and when to let it sit
for a few days before coming back to it, long-term planning in general,
and so on.
How well did it work? To be honest, it's hard to tell. The 7th grade
class did a fantastic job, but then they often did. The 8th grade class
had a hard time with grammar but had their vocabulary down - and that
fit their pattern as well. But it did get a number of students
reviewing for the final exam well before they normally would, and it
did clarify for each student which methods of review worked best for
himself/herself.
I was talking through the idea with our science teacher, and we both
were asking ourselves - what if I had used this tool all year? So I'm
putting the idea out here for your consideration and/or discussion. Has
anyone done anything like this?
Take care,
Bill Ivey
Pine Cobble School, Williamstown, MA
Stoneleigh-Burnham School, Greenfield, MA
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:04:27 -0700
From: Laurie Wasserman
Subject: Re: Grading and Knowing My Audience
Matt,
I teach 6th grade LD kids in Math, Reading and LA. Each subject is graded
differently because I see them as "my audience" and I need to
grade them
according to their educational and IEP needs.
For example, in Math, they are graded this way:
Preparation/Participation 20%
Binder 20%
Tests/Quizzes 20%
Homework 20%
Projects 20%
The majority of my students do not perform well on tests, so I count the
projects the same weight; this gives them an alternative assessment to
demonstrate knowledge and understanding. Like Brenda, I count being prepared
with proper materials as crucial.
In LA I grade as follows:
Essays 25%
Spelling Quizzes 25%
Novel Work 25%
Classwork/Participation/Preparation 25%
In Reading:
Quizzes 25%
Projects 25%
Classwork/Participation 25%
Preparation 25%
I adjust the weighting depending on my class each year, and sometimes each
term. As I get to know my students I may find I need to put more emphasis
on
being prepared, participating, etc.
Laurie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:04:37 -0700
From: Elizabeth Renaud
Subject: Re: Grading
--- Melba Smithwick wrote:
The key to students' success is to post
> their averages weekly, teach them to review them
> each week, stay on their case and
> communicate with their parents often.
>
How true! This past year our 8th grade class
(students and parents) was notorious for claiming no
one told them how bad they were doing. Fortunately,
we added more progress reports, and had a couple of
meetings with the kids and parents to inform them of
their progress. The parents and students were
required to sign statements that they were aware of
where they stood. We still had parents complain they
never were told. Of course, the principal was then
able to produce the signed documents, and that usually
was sufficient.
However, we have been discussing how to get the kids
to understand how they get their grades. So many
times a kid will be failing, usually by not doing the
work, then get motiviated and do an assignment. Many
times that assignment will be done well and a passing
grade will be assigned. But then the kid is shocked
when he/she finds out they are still failing. These
kids are really in the moment. If one assignment is
passing, then they are passing the class.
This next school year, our 7/8 team is going to begin
to show the students how their grades are figured.
Although, some teachers just do a quick example on the
overhead and go on, I think I will make it much more
hands on. I plan on having each of my students keep
track of their grades and every week or two, actually
have a time when they figure their averages.
Hopefully, this will make it more meaningful for them.
After all it is their grade they are figuring not
some mythical example I give on the overhead.
I really think the key is "ownership". Finding a way
to impress upon the students they own the grade.
However, I have been impressed with the discussions
related to re-tests, reflection on the work, etc.
I've got to believe that we make gains in the
direction of ownership when we teach kids how to make
what they are doing meaningful to them. In addition
to meaningful, engaged lessons, it is important to
pull them in on the reflection.
I have always had conflicts with grading. I want to
move my students beyond that letter they see on the
report card to a deeper understanding of what they are
learning and whether or not they are becoming
proficient in what they are learning.
Elizabeth Renaud
Fremont Elem.
Alhambra, CA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:17:41 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: Grading
Melba's right on many fronts -- as usual! :-) Teachers do it differently
in every district. An underlying hope, however: That we'll help students
focus on what they're learning, not on their averages. If we're going to
stop and look at averages every week or two, let's give at least as much
time to stopping and looking at all we've learned/mastered, too. Students
need that big picture, and we can provide it. I don't think society is
well-served to have grades as the soul indicator of school and personal
academic health. I know we have to work in reality, but maybe we can change
reality....
-- Rick Wormeli
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:25:01 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: Grading
Hi Lori -- Great question! Here's something that was hard for me to
swallow at first, but then I grasped it and it made a lot of sense: Our
averages of student grades are starting points. The final grade is
ultimately up to our professional opinion, not a mathematical calculation.
If his work adds up to an A, but I can analyze his products against
standards and see that they just don't add up to an A level proficiency,
I'll give him a B -- as long as I can justify it. This is an extreme case,
however. Usually a students' grades indicate his mastery clearly, but
sometimes and for varied reasons a students squeaks through with a grade
that does not reflect his mastery. If a student gets a B or B+ on his
average, but really demonstrates masterful, A-level proficiency, he gets
an
A. It's not a fudge grade for his character or hard work, it's a serious
contemplation of his mastery coming from a professional educator and subject
expert -- the teacher.
If a student was struggling in the initial weeks of a grading period but
then went on to master everything we studied that quarter and achieved A's
on it, when I stop and assess him against all the standards for that quarter
when I complete those report cards, he gets the highest levels he's
achieved; he gets an A, despite his earlier struggles. This is only if he's
gone back and demonstrated proficiency on everything in the grading period,
of course. If he's received A's only the most recent material but it
doesn't reflect his mastery of earlier studies, then we can't do this. --
Rick Wormeli
-----Original Message-----
And, then, to add another monkey wrench to the works...A question that has
been buzzing around some people in my district, do you give the student
the
average or what they're truly achieving at the end of the grading period.
If you had a kid that just didn't get place value, for instance, and scored
low on some assignments at the beginning of the grading period, but really
gets a handle on it at the end and truly understands it now, do you consider
those early assignments? It sure seems like there are way more questions
than answers for me these days!
Lori
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:26:58 -0400
From: Juanita Edge
Subject: Re: Giving students choices
Rick,
On p. 177 you talk about giving students choices. For example, instead of
requiring note cards for research you teach them six ways to take notes.
Please describe the six ways.
Juanita Edge
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:56:29 -0400
From: morton
Subject: Re: Natural consequences
Hi Rick,
Thank you for taking the time to write out such a long, detailed list of
potential responses. I'm no longer fantasizing about dunce caps :) and time-
outs with all these wonderful ideas to choose from.
Margaret
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:00:52 -0700
From: fijifamily
Subject: Re: Re-taking tests and grading issues
I've always taught my kids that what you learn is more important than what
grade you receive, but sometimes it is hard to justify this way of thinking.
My 14yo dd took an advanced math placement course, worked her tail end off
doing two hours of homework a day, plus working on projects over some
weekends only to get B's all year, finally pulling it up to an A at the
end
of the year. Her G.P.A. for the year was something like 3.85 and she
pointed out that had she taken a regular math course, it would likely have
been a 4.0. She understands that she learned and did more than the other
kids, but still didn't think it fair that her grades didn't reflect the
harder work she was doing. She also wasn't invited to the end of year
awards night. Was she basically being punished for being smart? Just what
do grades really mean anyways? Roxanne in WA
> I'm also in a quandry
> about grading with differentiated assignments--one student pointed
out
> that if she had done "that other assignment" instead of the
one she was
> assigned (an enriched version) she would have had an A+, so she she
was
> being punished for being smart. ????
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:56:42 -0400
From: Isabel Wiggins
Subject: Thanks Rick
Rick,
Thanks for making yourself available for the chat this week. I've
benefited from the discussion and your book is an inspiration.
Isabella Wiggins
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:33:34 -0400
From: Rick Wormeli
Subject: Re: Thanks and Farewell
Hi Isabella -- Thank you for your kind words and provocative questions.
You
were a terrific catalyst for our discussion. I look forward to our future
conversations and all that I have yet to learn from you.
I'm still planning to respond to several of the book chat's e-mails,
finishing by Saturday or Sunday morning at the latest. I hope John will
keep the chat open until noon on Sunday, if possible, so I can get these
last responses out. I haven't been too talkative this afternoon and evening
because the PowerPoint slides for the NMSA Web casts on Day One and Beyond
(one in September and one in October) were due today, and I've been trying
to finish them. I'm just now finishing the slides on discipline, in fact.
In case some of you are off to vacation spots, starting the school year,
and/or other great things, please accept my sincere thanks for participating
in our conversations this week, even if you were just a lurker and thinker
and never posted a message. I am more than honored that you would consider
something I wrote as worth your time and professional discourse. A great
outcome of this week would be the launch or reframing of your own ideas
regarding our topics and the inclination to fully explore their potential
in
the coming year.
I'm especially indebted to those seasoned veterans who joined the chat and
offered their wisdom. I know you're asked to share your ideas a lot, and
sometimes it gets repetitive, but hopefully the dynamic is different enough
with all these new folks who haven't had the privilege of your thinking
to
keep it interesting for you. You certainly were the tops of professional
this week. I'm in awe of your skillful contributions to our profession.
To those of you who are new to middle school teaching: Thank you for
choosing middle school teaching as the way to contribute your many gifts.
As some strange person once said, you'll turn our bulwarks into cathedrals;
you'll surpass what we've built. These are amazing leaders of tomorrow with
whom you're working. What an incredible opportunity you have to shape all
that is to come. Those of us on the listserv and in middle schools around
the world stand with you, ready to help. With so many folks ready to
listen and guide, you're ready for day one and beyond. :-)
-- Rick Wormeli
End of MWBOOKS Digest - 31 Jul 2003 to 1 Aug 2003 (#2003-6)
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