Just how chummy should a teacher be with her students? Where is the
line between appropriate and inappropriate interaction between a teacher
and students? MiddleWeb list members consider these difficult questions
in this intriguing discussion.
I teach in a small, k-8 charter school; our middle school has 39 students
between the 5th and 8th grades. The middle school staff, moreover, is smaller.
I am the language arts/ social studies teacher. My middle school colleague
is the math/ science teacher. We both have teaching assistants.
My co-teacher (the science and math person), seems to be very chummy with
the students. She is currently making weekend plans consisting of a movie
and shopping at the mall with the 7/8 group.
She has also been spreading the rumor that the students are incredibly well
behaved when they are in her classroom, although the kids are no better
with her than they are with me, the art teacher, the basic skills teacher,
and the PE teacher (this coming from those other teachers and her teaching
assistant.)
Her behavior and attitude seems a bit inappropriate though certainly not
uncommon.
Have any of you dealt with something like this before? How???
- Stacy
----------------------------
Cossandra voiced a number of concerns.
She sounds insecure when she insists students behave better for her
than for others. Maybe she is unsure of her own class management skills
and feels by bragging she will not appear as such to others.
As to being "chummy" with students...hmmm... that is kind of weird
in my book. Does she have kids that age? Is she quite young with few friends?
I cannot imagine wanting to spend the weekend with my students, although
they did invite me to go see Harry Potter over the weekend, and after my
husband said he would not go, I was tempted to call them. Alas, I feel there
needs to be a certain professional distance between students and teachers.
I do joke around with kids, and try to relate from their level, but still
remain the "adult" in the situation.
On the other hand, I have known great teachers who invite kids over for
camping trips in their backyards, slumber parties, etc... these are all
traditions from year to year and kids look forward to them. SO I guess it
really depends on situation.
If this pattern continues with her socializing w/ kids on weekends, and
you are concerned about the kids, I would mention it to the principal and
let him/ her deal with it. Just my thoughts :-)
- Cossondra
-----------------------------
Chris, one of the principals on our List, shared how he would approach
this teacher/student situation.
I agree, as a principal, that I would want to know about this kind of
situation. I'd look into it quietly and if I thought there were any issues
to be concerned about I would talk with the teacher confidentially. There
are a number of yellow, if not red flags here.
Of greatest concern to me is denigrating the classroom management of colleagues.
There's no useful purpose for that kind of behavior.
I'd take a closer look at how she manages student behavior in her classroom.
As long as her extracurricular activities do not negatively affect her ability
to relate to her students as a teacher and mentor I guess it's OK...but
I'd be watching and listening carefully about any hint of unprofessional
behavior, and be prepared to address it.
- Chris
---------------------
LeeAnn offered her opinion about the suitability of a teacher taking
their students shopping and to a movie.
I don't see that as inappropriate. When I was a younger teacher without
children, the 8th grade cheerleaders I coached used to have slumber parties
at my house. There are a lot of kids that probably benefit from her extra
attention.
- LeeAnn
-----------------------------
Sue expressed her discomfort.
This is called a boundary issue. I think that this behavior should be
brought to the attention of the guidance counselor/ head of school or both
before it goes any further. This is a dangerous situation for both the teacher
and the students. In schools teachers are adults, and students are children.
There is no equality between the two. She is an adult looking for friendship/companionship
with 14-year-old children? The teacher has the power to include or exclude.
Friendship relationships are based on equality. When one person in the relationship
(the teacher) has more power than the other person in the relationship (the
student) there can never be a relationship based on equality.
There might be other issues at hand -- a lonely teacher, depressed teacher,
teacher or student with family problems...She needs support. This situation
makes me feel very uncomfortable.
- Sue
---------------------------
Carolyn considered the benefits of having students see their teacher
in a non-teaching role.
I am sure having 39 students total puts a different slant on the relationships
developed between teacher and student. I can see where it might end up like
a "camp" atmosphere. I think having students see you in a different
role than teacher is beneficial to them developing relationships with adults
in general. My concern is with the "rule of 3" that we all learned
in school - don't be alone with a student.
The other issue of speaking of her classroom management as better might
be a problem of greater depth -- that one I would involve the principal.
- Carolyn
-----------------------
Sal examined whether becoming involved in students' lives can be considered
unethical or suspect.
I must say that I am disappointed by the reactions of many of the people
on this list toward this teacher. Let me make a few points:
1. I am their teacher. In many cases, I am also my student's advisor, brother,
sister, mother, father, etc. 2. My relationship with my students does not
start when they walk into my classroom and it does not end when they leave
my classroom. 3. In order to be a teacher to these kids, I must take the
time to know these kids.
Here are a few scenarios. From what I am hearing here, these would constitute
unethical behavior as well:
1. The coach who has players at his home to review game film and discuss
the upcoming game.
2. The teacher who attends his students' extracurricular activities. i.e.:
ballet, wrestling, basketball, YAFL football, softball, karate.
3. The teacher who makes a home visit to meet with that student and discuss
life, including school.
4. The teacher who eats lunch with the kids everyday in the cafeteria or
invites them to his classroom to hear some new music during lunch.
5. The teacher who attends a funeral of a family member or is invited to
the quincenera of a former student whose brother happens to be in his class
this year.
6. The teacher who has taken boys aspiring to be high school athletes and
introduced them to coaches and watch practices at the high school as well
as the college level, where they have had the opportunity to meet and talk
to athletes about what it truly means to be a student/athlete.
These are only a few, but they are all examples of ways that I, and in some
cases, my daughter, have become involved in the lives of our students. Does
this make being their teacher a difficult job? To the contrary, it makes
it an easier job because they get to see me as a "REAL PERSON."
It takes away the intimidation factor. They can relax and learn and not
have to be afraid of me. Yes, I get angry and I tell them. I get disappointed
and I tell them. What was their reaction? The kids get upset because they
have upset me.
I should say that things are not always wine and roses. I still have kids
that make my job challenging. But it's amazing how these students come around
after seeing the respect that others give me.
In the original email, it was mentioned that this teacher "has also
been spreading the rumor that the students are incredibly well behaved when
they are in her classroom, although the kids are no better with her than
they are with me, the art teacher, the basic skills teacher, and the PE
teacher (this coming from those other teachers and her teaching assistant.)"
I do not want to sound condescending here, but when did it become other
people's business how a teacher conducts him/herself in the classroom. If
her perception is that her kids are behaving, then so be it. The bottom
line is whether her kids are learning. How she accomplishes that is up to
her. If her kids are learning, others teachers should be knocking at her
door to find out what her success is attributed to.
The bottom line is that as long as this teacher is not doing anything inappropriate
(I do not deem a trip to the mall or a movie inappropriate, esp. if parents
know what is going on) and here students are learning, then BACK OFF! Allow
me to be blunt, but petty jealous accomplishes nothing. We must be a community
in order to accomplish our goals.
I apologize to anyone who found my reactions offensive, but I believe issues
needed to be brought to the forefront. I believe in getting to know my students
and vice versa so that we can see each other as real people, not simply
8:00am to 3:00pm daycare providers.
Thank you for the time and I look forward to reading your responses and
reactions.
- Sal
----------------------
Sid added to Sal's posting.
I have to join in with Sal here and I think an important part of the
original posting that people are missing is that it is a tiny charter school.
One of the reasons people have their kids go to a school that small is so
things like this can happen. If that teacher had 75-80 students, no, she
couldn't take them to the mall.
Also, from the original posting it seems if Sal is right on target. The
teacher in question says that she doesn't have discipline problems and a
problem is in the eye of the beholder. Those of you that teach 150-175 kids
a day may feel that people in a school like mine 60 kids a day don't have
any problems either. I don't think the original posting said she was running
down the other teachers. Correct me if I am wrong
- Sid
-----------------------
Marcia pointed out that school districts have put policies into place
that limit or define a teacher's out of school involvement with students.
Our district's policy is that we cannot give students rides in our cars
even if it is severe weather and they missed the bus. We are not permitted
to have them at our home. If we violate the rules our employment will be
terminated.
When my children were middle school age, they were friends with many of
my students. They came over to our house; we drove them to movies, the mall,
etc. I always had the parents sign a disclaimer that they were giving me
permission to drive their children places and to spend time in our home
with our family. The parents, understanding the district's policy, signed
without a problem. However, if the district had been aware of this, the
document would not have protected my job. They are very strict in enforcing
their policy.
We do have home schooling teachers who will go to a student's home to take
their work to them, but they have to follow strict guidelines. The parents
have to be present the entire time the teacher is there. An older sibling
won't do, it has to be the parents. This seems excessively strict to me,
but they want to prevent even the appearance of evil. It does reduce our
liability.
- Marcia
-------------------------
Matt voiced his disagreement.
I find it incredibly unfortunate that your district has such a policy.
I concur with Sal one million percent. There is nothing wrong with a teacher
taking students to a mall or movie or whatever. I have become very close
to several of my students, and we interact a lot outside of school. I don't
see the problem. Sure, it may not be the "norm," but my word,
how many of our kids need a positive adult role model in their lives? It's
unfortunate that in this litigious society that even the thought of someone
thinking something is inappropriate creates rules such as this that in the
end punish the kids.
- Matt
----------------------
Carolyn responded to Sal's question about whether other people have to
right to comment on what a teacher does in the classroom.
Sal, I think it becomes someone else's business when it (the issue)
starts to affect other personnel, which could in turn then affect the students.
In this case that is the scenario that was presented for discussion.
- Carolyn
---------------------
Stacey added to her previous posting.
These situations are far different than socializing with students during
the weekend. Most of these situations leave far less room for misinterpretation.
I thoroughly enjoy having lunch with my students and talking to them about
their hobbies.
Additionally, since many students at school have difficult home lives, I
think that teachers NEED to be those consistent adults. My students who
are abused by their mother's boyfriend have received far more attention
and support by the adults who have clear boundaries -- and they trust us
because we take the position of responsible adult.
- Stacy
---------------------------
Stacey commented on the repercussions that happen when a teacher claims
that students are better behaved in their class than in other classes.
This has been affecting other personnel, because the question is placed
on me and the other teachers "Well, why aren't they wonderful in your
class when they are so wonderful in the other classes." I am put in
the situation where I have to validate myself and then compare myself to
a standard that does not really exist in the other classroom.
Additionally, the science/math teacher has an assistant with her who is
being placed in an incredibly awkward position. She adores and is trusted
by the children. She does not, however, want to join this weekend excursion
to the mall. She does not want the students to misconstrue her reasons for
not joining (she does not feel this mall and movie deal is appropriate.)
The science/math teacher also seems to get uptight whenever the students
ask the assistant a question or give her more attention.
I guess you really have to be there.
- Stacy
------------------------------
Ann, a middle school vice principal, offered her perspective.
I do not know what is normal in most schools only those in public Massachusetts
schools. However, I would consult with my principal, mentor or supervisor
about out of school jaunts or things that go beyond the "normal"
world of a public school teacher.
I have known teachers who take kids to Europe; host study sessions at their
home and even give their e-mail and phone number to kids and their families.
I think I would draw the line there.
Teachers who drive kids in their cars, meet them in "non educational
settings" and invite kids over for sleepovers are stepping over certain
boundaries that open them up to all sorts of legal challenges. And, given
the recent publicity regarding child abuse, I think any teacher who hosts
slumber parties is really walking on thin ice.
Now I do know of schools that host slumber parties as part of a read-in
or some sort of fund raiser but then that takes places within the protection
of the school. However, any situation in which children change clothes,
sleep in the dark etc makes me very uncomfortable in this era when child
abusers seem to be behind every bush.
I cannot speak for private schools. I think the issue of teacher/child intimacy
is different for each private school
- Ann
--------------------------
Myrna expressed her concern about teachers making comparative classroom
management statements among themselves.
I think there are two issues here. First many inferences were made about
inappropriate behavior without much information. I'm not comfortable labeling
her actions inappropriate. At my school for instance, advisors actively
participate in out of school activities such as charity events, community
building dinners, parties, etc. But parents attend these too. I would be
leery if this teacher was going at these all alone.
The part of the question that got to me was the competitive classroom management
statement - sort of a taunt that the students in her class behave differently
and better. This to me is what needs to be addressed by the other teachers
and the principal. I did have a colleague in one school who did this --
she never received recognition from the school and her peers for wonderful
work and so she palled around with the kids and got tons of positive feedback
from them. But the situation played out in time -- she never was part of
the teacher group, was basically lonely and unhappy and soon thereafter
left.
- Myrna
--------------------------------
Brenda tried to offer some clarity about when an "out of school"
activity moves from appropriate to inappropriate.
Sal has mentioned a number of "out of school" teacher/student
activities that are definitely going "beyond the benchmarks" in
our profession. I agree that our job description often goes past instruction
to more nurturing roles. I think back to the movie "October Sky"
where a teacher's encouragement and interest fueled the scientific genius
of three teenagers or the movie "Stand and Deliver" where a teacher
poured himself into a group of kids so that they could pass the advanced
calculus exam.
Having said the above, I do think there is a place to examine "why"
teachers do the "up and beyond" extra-curricular activities with
kids. I've taught with teachers who work more on developing their popularity
than the quality of their program. I have also seen teachers lose their
objectivity with their students because the kids had become more like family.
I have had end of the year sleepovers with my Grade Six students, but they
are done at school, with other parents involved. This Friday I am taking
four of my Grade 6 girls out for lunch (to thank them for helping me put
up and take down a Peace Gallery during Remembrance Day...it took hours
to do, and these girls worked tirelessly), but we are
having lunch in our school cafeteria. Keeping these activities within the
school helps keep it on the up and up, something that we would be naive
to ignore.
Brenda
------------------------------
Ann agreed.
I agree, Brenda. There are types of teacher activities that are appropriate.
I too am inspired by the "Stand and Deliver" movie and indeed
have used it as a discussion with teachers about what the movie tells us
about achievement and reaching kids who traditionally do not achieve.
(For example, having the same teacher work with kids over the summer and
the next year is an interesting antidote for those kids who come from chaotic
families. Asking teachers to make home visits is often an aspect of school
with high-achievers.)
I also think that taking kids out to lunch (read during the school day)
who have helped out on a specific project is OK in my book. Arranging funky
school functions at the school with parents is also OK.
However, activities that are not generated from the school or are not educationally
related frankly make me nervous.
- Ann
--------------------------------------
Liz emphasized the importance of examining the purpose of proposed "out
of school" student/teacher activities.
I agree that the specific behavior -- taking the kids to the mall --
needs to be examined in context, looking at the teacher's motivation. If
she is planning to go to the mall with the kids as if they are all buddies
and "be one of the gals," then it is probably inappropriate. If
she is looking at it as a chance to take her students to the mall and enjoy
time with them but as the "responsible adult" in the party, or
sees it as an opportunity to examine the role that advertising, etc. plays
in their shopping selections (how I would probably approach it!), then that's
different.
I've "broken the rules" on a few occasions when I felt that it
was appropriate and necessary to "get into my students' quality world,"
to borrow a phrase from Glasser. For example, I've had students crying and
I've shut the door to give them some privacy from 1200+ students changing
classes. When I was a basketball coach, I invited a bunch of freshman girls
over to my home to watch "Hoosiers" before their big playoff game
(all had permission slips from parents on file with me and the school, for
the legal protection).
Now, had I invited them over in a spirit of "let's all hang out and
watch movies, guys!", with the goal of being buddies, that would be
inappropriate. But I don't think it's inappropriate to be friends with one's
students, just in a non-"buddy-buddy" way. It's a different form
of friendship but one I had with teachers when I was a student -- and some
of these relationships helped me through very rough years when that person
may have been the only adult I trusted.
So I think it is really the teacher's goal that makes a particular action
appropriate or inappropriate (with the obvious exceptions that are always
inappropriate).
- Liz
----------------------------------------
Mary Anne shared her thoughts.
I'm really torn on this one for many of the reasons we have discussed
already. But one comment stood out for me--that of the teacher who is also
a parent. My house is always full of my daughter's friends. I would not
have it any other way. I help with homework, cook dinner, provide snacks,
make sure the pool is clean, and we talk about everything from the last
boyfriend to the fight they had with their own mom. BUT, they are not in
my home at my invitation. I am no longer a teacher--I am Kate and Men's
mom. I have to add that they do not go to the school I teach in anymore
although they attend high school with many of my former students and many
of my teacher friends.
I have taken students on weekend field trips--I always take another parent
chaperone. One of my book groups is reading "Harry Potter" and
we will meet next Saturday at a local theater to see it together--I have
two other parents who will stay and view the movie with me.
I tend to agree with Sal--but I am also trying to be smart these days. I
am my student's teacher, but I also play their mother, friend, mentor, social
worker, cook and bottle washer from time to time. I have taken kids on field
trips all over the world--but never alone. It is just not smart!
- Mary Anne
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