Deborah Bambino and Ellen Berg agreed to moderate this discussion
of I Read It, But I Don't Get It by Cris Tovani. As you might imagine,
the conversation ranged across many issues growing out of teachers' work
with struggling readers.
Deb and Ellen began with several questions about the importance of reading
across the curriculum. Later, author Cris Tovani
joined the discussion.
Hi All,
We're excited about this opportunity to dig into Cris Tovani's book together.
We've been getting ready for a few days and thought we'd kick things off
with a few questions we've been mulling over. Please respond to our post
or feel free to start with a question or comment of your own.
Deb: As I read the book, I was thinking about how I could cover my
science curriculum, conduct labs etc. and still fit in instruction about
decoding and comprehension. On the other hand, if I don't help my kids become
better readers will they really understand the curriculum? What thoughts
or practices have others put into place? Are folks using their teams to
press these strategies across the curriculum?
Ellen: We suspect that quite a few of our students are engaged in
the "fake reading" Cris Tovani described in chapter 1. How can
we help students recognize this problem without embarrassing them?
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Laurie began by referencing the graphic organizers she uses for comprehension:
I teach learning disabled kids who are mainstreamed for Social Studies and
Science. I am part of a Gr. 6 team made up of a 5-person team; the other
two teachers teach Math and Language Arts. All of us, myself included, read
aloud with the kids. The kids take turns reading from the text, novel, etc.
and the teachers often take a turn reading as well....We found the kids
weren't doing the reading on their own...
Most kids, regular ed. too, are several years below grade level, (the average
is Gr. 3-4). They became frustrated when they couldn't comprehend.
One of the strategies our entire school system is using to help the kids
comprehend better is a series of graphic organizers called L.I.N.K.S. We
were all trained in using it...We often do it with the kids in the beginning...some
of the organizers are more appropriate than others...The kids like using
it, because it shows them how to take notes on what they're reading...With
all of us doing it, there's a lot of familiarity and consisitency from class
to class.
Laurie Wasserman
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Laurie added:
In my Language Arts class we are reading a novel, Tuck Everlasting, (a great
book by the way!). I asked the kids what they thought of the book so far;
and they told me they didn't understand what they were reading.I asked them
if we read it together and I stopped and discussed it with them, would that
help. They liked that idea and that's what we have been doing. This prevented
me from wondering who was doing the "fake reading." I got the
impression several of them were!
I also ordered the books on tape, free from Perkins School for the Blind,
Watertown, Massachusetts; (617) 924-3434.You have to sign up and get a tape
playing machine because it plays the tapes at a different speed from a traditional
tape player. A few of my students who are comprehending at a Gr. 2 or Gr.
3 level, like being able to go home and listen to the tape while they follow
along in their books.
They actually remind me to order the tapes when we start a new novel!
Laurie Wasserman
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Deb asked:
Could you please describe one or two of the organizers that you feel are
most effective? Are the note taking strategies similar to those shared by
Cris Tovani in the book?
Thanks, Deb
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Laurie described her organizers:
One organizer has to do with character development. There are several variations
of the same organizer: one has a picture of one character, the next two,
the next three, and the last one has four. It has a cartoonish picture of
a person with a line coming from his/her head: the student writes what the
person is thinking; next is a line from the heart: what are they feeling;
next from the mouth-what are they saying about conflicts, problems, etc.;
next is a line from the feet-what are they doing. All the teachers have
a copy on a transparency included in their binder and they can model it
for their students. I find it's easier to start with the picture of one
character (the main one) and then build as additional characters are introduced.
The next organizer we use has a line for the title/number of a chapter and
pages at the top. It has 4 boxes on it, with about 5 lines underneath. The
kids list the main idea with supporting facts. Our Social Studies teacher
uses this a lot for taking notes on World History. She models it at first,
then the kids do it on their own. They then share what they've written.
She guides them initially about what is and isn't important.
My favorite, and the easiest, is the Venn Diagram. We use this during Science:
comparing and contrasting different elements, different kinds of organisms/kingdoms,
etc. Our Social Studies teacher has her students compare different religions
and cultures. In Reading/Languuage Arts it can be used to compare characters,
settings, conflicts.
I haven't finished all of Cris's book, so I'm not sure if this is similar
to her note-taking strategies. I know she suggests using post-its and highlighting
passages.
Laurie Wasserman
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Sharon described some methods she's using to support reading for understanding:
Sounds like Laurie and I teach in a similar situation. I, too, use graphic
organizers which could apply to all subject areas. My favorites are:
compare and contrast T", Venn, Point of View, Characer Tree, Observation
(great for science), sequence, KWL, hamburger for LA, and prediction. None
are revolutionary but using them in a consistent manner helps the students
to read material with a method on mental organization.
I love the idea of using post-its but I use the same set of books for all
my classes. I ask the students to write the page number on the post-it and
keep them in their binder mounted on notebook paper. Not as immediate and
keeping them in the book, but it works. I am teaching Bloomability currently
and we began with KWL and a library research assignment on Switzerland.
I believe background information will provide the enhancing "experience"
to understand the book. Students do poster reports on skiing, survival,
and other related subjects. Each student has a vocabulary bookmark where
they write down words to look up. They also have a worksheet that has open
ended questions (wonder, relating to past experience, etc.) for journal
writing. I mix reading to self with reading aloud (students and teacher)
in class.
I really enjoyed "I Read It..." and have begun to shift my lessons
towards Chris's methodology.
Sharon in Seattle
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Anne shared some thoughts about reading and science -- and a confession:
Deb asked about how to incorporate reading strategies into science.
Okay - it's confession time! I was one of those secondary science teachers
who thought that teaching kids to read and write was the job of the language
arts teacher when I started teaching.
Fortunately, I'm somewhat "teachable" myself. It didn't take a
rocket scientist to realize that most of my kids were engaged in fake reading
anytime I asked them to read in class - even when I decided to start off
a unit by having them read a fast-paced Heinlein short story about the environment.
Now, I figured that most of the students were doing fake reading because
they were just bored by the deadly, rather disconnected textbook material.
(Yawn, yawn.) But, when many kids didn't do well with the Heinlein story
-- a real "grabber" - I began to wonder.
To make a long story short, I finally learned what it meant to read material
- be able to decode every word - and still not understand what I was reading.
(This amazing insight struck me when I tried to read a chapter from an Windows
installation manual.) About that time I figured out what was going on with
some of my kids, and decided to learn how to teach my middle schoolers to
understand what they were reading.
None of my colleagues at that time seemed to understand what I was about,
so I started grabbing elementary magazines, looking at reading strategies
in elementary textbooks, and trying to figure it out for myself. I found
a great research synthesis of reading in a SERVE publication (What We Know
About Reading, Teaching, and Learning) and devoured that. With help and
ideas for language arts teachers and elementary colleagues I began putting
things together. I was excited!
I soon realized that time was a factor and that changing the way I taught
was harder than I thought. So I made myself a series of checklists with
reading strategies - some for prereading, some for during reading, some
for followup, some for vocabulary building, etc. I put the checklists in
my plan book and every day I made sure I checked off at least a couple of
strategies. I finally wrote a booklet for the students and at the beginning
of the year we went through reading strategies, how we were going to be
using them, and the kids made bookmarks with a list of at least ten strategies
on it to keep in their texts.
I'll never consider myself a good reading teacher, but I did learn to incorporate
reading strategies into my science teaching!
Anne Jolly
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Deb replied to Anne:
Anne wrote: "I finally wrote a booklet for the students and at the
beginning of the year we went through reading strategies, how we were going
to be using them, and the kids made bookmarks with a list of at least ten
strategies on it to keep in their texts."
Any chance you could post some of the materials you developed for your classes?
Like you I stumbled into reading instruction out of necessity, but I now
see that I was too hit or miss because I thought it wasn't really my job
in science class.
Deb
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And Anne responded:
I'd be glad to post some materials I developed - none of which are original
or represent new ideas in reading. They're all adaptations of strategies
that someone wiser than me came up with. It'll be something of a "risk"
for me to post these because I'm afraid the materials will seem "ho
hum" to so many wonderful teachers on this booklist. But I'm nothing
if not a risk-taker! Maybe some other folks will do the same and we can
have a "Reading Strategies"
spot on MiddleWeb where we can all access each other's materials! Where
should I post them?
Anne
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Sandi uses highlighters to good effect -- but ran into a problem at assessment
time:
I have used the highlighting passages method with my lower level English
classes (8th grade). I have two 1-4 level classes which have limited reading
skills. I taught them to use two highlighters... one would be for ideas
that sound like they are related to the main idea (I am trying to make the
concept of "theme" more tangible) and another would be for areas
which were hard to understand.
My problem is arising from preparing them for the standards. During the
assessment, I cannot read the passages aloud or clarify questions for them...
so I am trying to wean them off of me and make them more responsible for
approaching the text as individual readers. They have basically refused
to give up the highlighters. When I was absent from class, I hid the highlighters
so they would have to use their pencils... I came back to find that they
opened up my markers to use instead.
Does anyone have any suggestions that I could offer them to get through
the assessments with?
Always-
Sandi
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Amy commented on Cris Tovani's insights about students who "fake
read":
I think Cris Tovani had the right idea in being up front and honest with
kids about fake reading. Middle school students seem to appreciate (and
definitely seemed to be relieved in the book excerpt) when teachers can
at least guess at what's going on. I don't you should point out to classes
or students who's actually fake reading specifically, but making them aware
of the fact that it happens might help some kids to "tune in"
again.
A. Heinsma
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Ellen agrees about the value of pointing out "fake reading"
to students.
I agree with the person who stated we should be up front with our students
about what fake reading is, that we know some of them have engaged in it,
and then spend the time talking and modeling what "real" reading
actually is. Just yesterday I made the comment to the class that reading
was not just pronouncing all the words right or recognizing what the words
were, but that reading was making meaning by thinking about how word linked
to word, sentence to sentence, etc. Some of them looked a little shocked,
but it opened up the conversation.
Many of our students don't see the purpose of reading because they aren't
making meaning and it isn't enjoyable to them. I think the most important
first step we can take with students is to give them a glimpse of the rewards
and enjoyment of reading, simply to motivate them so we can then introduce
the comprehension strategies to them.
How do we do this? For me, reading aloud to my students has made a huge
difference. Before I began reading aloud to my students every day, before
we read Hatchet
aloud together as a class, I couldn't have gotten most of my kids to check
out one of my books from my classroom library or choose to read when they
finished their work. Post-read-aloud and post-Hatchet, I have kids begging
for the opportunity to do both. In the past three weeks students have checked
out 67 books! I see more kids taking their books to lunch or going to the
library when they're finished eating. They see a purpose to reading for
enjoyment.
Once we pique students' interest, they will be more open to learning the
comprehension strategies because they will want to understand the stories
they read as fully and deeply as when you discuss them in class or read
them aloud. At least, that has been my experience this year.
What strategies have you all used to combat the fake reading? What really
works for you?
Ellen
Berg
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Ellen also commented on Deb's question about content-area teachers supporting
the teaching of reading:
If we remember that we are teaching
kids and not a subject, maybe we will all learn to be a little less
territorial about what we do and don't teach. At the middle school level,
many of us are fortunate enough to work on teams, so it makes it easier
for us to share and link our curriculum whenever possible. It takes work,
and I know I certainly have far from mastered it (like when the science
teacher wants me to teach her kids how to write up lab reports...I'm getting
there! :-).
If we are on a team situation, I think it makes sense to work together as
a team to be sure all of our students are able to comprehend whatever text
they encounter. Understanding purposes for reading, for example, will vary
from course to course and text to text. If each content area teacher works
together on the same strategy but with just a little different flavor to
it because of the difference in text, won't students be more likely to apply
each strategy with regularity and in situations outside of school? I think
the danger of looking to the LA teacher to do all the reading instruction
is that students begin to think, "This is what we do in LA, not in
science, SS, math, etc." Even when I have used content area textbooks
to model strategies, there is little carryover to those classes because
the teacher in that class is not using it or the language or the expectation
with them.
I imagine a major reason why Laurie's school is having so much success with
LINKS is because the organizers are used consistently in every area of the
school. Can you imagine what would happen if we did that with reading comprehension
strategies?
What have other content area teachers done? Have you "flown solo",
or have you partnered with someone else?
Ellen
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And then Ellen posed several questions about building support among content
teachers:
As I was thinking about the overwhelming benefits of a committed, focused
team regarding reading instruction, a few questions came to mind:
*For those of us "in the know" what is the best way for us to
approach content area teachers who are either unaware of the benefits or
who are reluctant for whatever reason? I tend to be a very direct person,
but I'm not certain that's very effective. How have you gotten others to
join the cause, or how did others entice you to do so?
*What are the roadblocks?
Ellen
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Ellen also asked Sandi about the way she taught students to use highlighters:
Sandi wrote: "I have used the highlighting passages method with my
lower level English classes (8th grade). I taught them to use two highlighters...
one would be for ideas that sound like they are related to the main idea
(I am trying to make the concept of "theme" more tangible) and
another would be for areas which were hard to understand."
Sandi,
How did you teach your students to use the highlighters? How did you keep
them from highlighting everything? What colors have you found to be effective?
I would love to teach my students to use highlighters, but my fear is they
will highlight everything without interacting with the text. Do you review
their highlighted text with them? How? When?
I am sorry for all the questions :-). I loved the way Tovani uses highlighters
in the classroom (p. 30), and I definitely hadn't thought of giving students
different colors to denote different purposes.
I think part of my problem is that I never really found highlighting to
be an effective tool for my own use. How can I sell them/teach them if I
haven't learned effective highlighting myself?
Ellen
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Sandi replied:
Tovani advises that EVERYTHING be highlighted... yellow for what is understood
and pink for what is not understood (or the other way around). (Editor's
note: Cris Tovani corrects this statement.)
I let the kids highlight what they "think" the main points are...
then we discuss the differences in what we chose. Some kids really do go
to town at first...but then they become more selective as they go along.
By discussing it, they are basically making meaning together...during which
I just ask questions to direct the conversation, providing structure and
refocus.
My problem that I had posed earlier... is that they have become so accustomed
to doing this each time... that they are completely reliant on it. I am
not allowed to let them have highlighters during the Standards Assessment,
so I really want to take this habit and transform it so they can use their
pencils. It isn't as colorful, but I am hoping that they will at least try~
"I think part of my problem is that I never really found highlighting
to be an effective tool for my own use. How can I sell them/teach them if
I haven't learned effective highlighting myself? "
I am much more effective at using highlighters in revising then I am at
reading. I have only begun with the reading portion since trying to use
8th grade Daybooks with a class full of 3rd/4th grade reading level students.
I then began to use Goodman's Five-Star Activity book activities. They are
basically focused on reading comprehension skills which are much more effective
on their reading level.
Always-
Sandi
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Marsha believes "fake reading" is a fact of life in her classroom:
I think fake has been pretty common in my room, sometimes. I agree with
the posting that said that frankness with the kids is important. I believe
they will be so relieved to know someone gets that they don't understand
what is being "said" and that you offer some hope of helping them
to find a way to understand. They know they're not really reading it and
if they trust you to have their best interests at heart, they'll accept
your insight and offer of help. Everybody needs help with something. Especially
me, I usually can't find my glasses or the attendence book or the hall passes.
Or remembering what schedule we're on that day. So if you need reading help,
then that's just where your help is needed. No big deal.
I saw this problem as a big threat to my science students and took a video
Reading in the Content Area class last summer. It was actually very, very
good. The tapes were inspiring and usually I'm an old cynic. The biggest
thing that I've been doing that helps my students is pre-reading strategies---especially
vocab building stuff. In Math, I have the elementary school word wall going
and do all sorts of concept maps. Most of the math teachers think I'm wasting
my time with all the pre-reading stuff I do when we start a new unit, but
I think it's a big help. We revisit the concept map throughout the unit
and they modify and change based on their new understandings of words.
This has been a key thing in Science, too. (Yes, I get to teach both. And
we have a new problem-solving based math program that is critically dependent
on reading skills.) Now we have kids who used to be successful in math that
are struggling because of the reading and writing. (By the way, I love this
new math program and think it's the best. They are doing problems that they
will face as adults in the real world. Not just rows of computational problems.
So this reading hurdle is not a fatal error.)
The other very, very simple strategy that I've successfully used is reading
and re-reading. My students finally understand it's not bad to go back and
re-read. Most of them are now convinced you can't understand technical reading
(math and science books) without several readings and maybe, those readings
might have to be outloud. Sometimes it takes dumb ole me 4 or 5 readings
to get everything straight in my head with complex scientific processes
or story problems.
We do have a new reading curriculum and it may be a big help,too. Since
this was the pilot year for that, we'll have to wait until next year to
see how the reading class strategies will be integrated into content areas
and content areas will be integrated into reading class. But I needed something
in my classroom and these were two simple, effective things to do to help
before the reading program was up and running.
Marsha
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Myrna supports the idea of being "up-front" with students:
I agree with those of you who favor the direct approach with the students.
Students tell me often that they read but don't get it - or can't remember
-or get tired when they see the print on the page. Chris's technique of
telling her own story with fake reading would certainly open things up.
On page 17 there is a list of bullets called, redefining reading, that I
want to encourage teachers to copy and post in their rooms. Part of the
thinking aloud would then include the pat yourself on the back for using
one of the strategies posted.
We began highlighting and using post-its following training in Great Books.
Transferring this pre-reading/questioning strategy to science wouldn't be
difficult but I think will require the teacher to model first. Most importantly
I think the teacher needs to accept that less material may be covered at
the beginning - until the students begin to really use the strategies, read
and realize that the plan is working.
Myrna
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Mary Anne relates a fresh story from her reading classroom that demonstrates
the importance of "focus" as students read:
This afternoon I was working with a group of eighth graders who are three-four
years below reading level. I had them read Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky"
silently to themselves. The only clue I gave them was that it was a story.
After they read it, I had them take a piece of loose leaf and fold it lengthwise
down the middle. I asked them to retell the story in their own words.
Then, without any other directions, I read the poem to them aloud. On the
other half of the paper, they then told the story. The difference between
the two interpretations was amazing! I did not change any of Carroll's nonsense
words. They heard them the same way they read them.
But they understood the story when it was read aloud and they enjoyed it!
I asked them later, if they had really read it the first time through. All
of them admitted that when I said they were going to read a poem--they were
excited because it would be short and easy! But, when they got it they attempted
to read the first stanza and quit after the first line. By eighth grade,
my kids are giving up. If they don't get the immediate gratification of
being able to decode the words, they don't even try to get big picture understanding.
Mary Anne
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Deb comments on Ellen's question about raising awareness among other
teachers:
Ellen wrote: "What is the best way for us to approach content area
teachers who are either unaware of the benefits or who are reluctant for
whatever reason? I tend to be a very direct person, but I'm not certain
that's very effective. How have you gotten others to join the cause, or
how did others entice you to do so? What are the roadblocks?"
I think some teachers are comfortable in their content area and don't like
to stray beyond it. It's still pretty acceptable to complain that "we're
not supposed to be teaching this...they should have gotten these skills
in elementary school etc." I agree with you that Laurie's situation
is enviable. I often felt like it was pulling teeth to get people to agree
to joint lessons and approaches. Once they experienced the power and pleasure
of team work it was fine, but the first step was the hardest.
I keep coming back to the attitude about teaching subjects or students.
I think we need a whole team or school decision to do whatever is necessary
to help our kids and then the strategies can be put into place.
I don't remember Cris Tovani talking about other
folks buying in to her strategies. Maybe we should ask her about this
when she joins us.
Deb
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Nancy endorses read-alouds and shares an "aha":
The power of the read-aloud is undeniable. I have been doing that for a
number of years in spite of some fellow cohorts telling me that these kids
are too old for it. To them I reply, "Just give it a try, watch the
kids turn on, they won't let you stop."
My favorite "aha" from Tovani's book has been making our students
show us where they "don't get it." How many students have learned
that if they keep saying they don't get it enough times, the teacher will
do all the work!
I am loving this discussion!
Nancy Roberts
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Deb agrees with Marsha's "no big deal" approach:
Marsha wrote: "Everybody needs help with something... So if you need
reading help, then that's just where your help is needed. No big deal."
I like your approach to our students' needs. I have used a word wall in
science and found that it helped my students a lot. I also did a lot of
thinking out loud for them. We used mneumonics to remember things to. I
think we need to demystify the whole learning process so our kids can stop
thinking that some people are smart and get it,and others, like them, don't.
Unfortunately, some of us haven't spent much time figuring out how we/they
learn and we end up perpetuating our students' misconceptions because we
share them to some degree.
Deb
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Posters that redefine reading:
Myrna wrote: "On page 17 there is a list of bullets called, redefining
reading, that I want to encourage teachers to copy and post in their rooms."
I have already made some posters like the one you mentioned here. I agree
that teaching these strategies slowly in the beginning will produce greater
breadth and depth as the year progresses. However, I have always had a fair
amount of administrative support for my efforts. I'm wondering about teachers
in schools where they're expected to keep moving and moving quickly. How
can we get the word out to administrators and District folks that we need
to slow down and go deeply into our lessons?
Deb
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A question for Mary Anne:
Mary Anne wrote: "They understood the story when it was read aloud
and they enjoyed it!"
Did you ask your students why they thought they understood your reading
better than their own? I'd be interested in their answers.
Deb
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Mary Anne responded:
I delayed answering this until I had the kids in that group again this morning.
When I asked them why Jabberwocky made sense when I read the poem aloud
(I had them all answer the question in writing at the same time) the response
I got was remarkable. They said--"The words didn't have to make sense.
Your voice told the story."--Allen
Chris said--"It was like listening to the radio. I didn't have to know
what every word meant." Nadjla had a different idea. She said--"It
was like I could make up pictures with the sounds--rather than try and spend
energy figuring out the words."
Today, I didn't give them the text. I had a friend read the poem on a tape.
Each kid had a walkman and headset and a copy of the tape. I asked them
to draw a picture of the Jabberwock looked like. Each drawing was different,
but each was remarkable. Several drew the "tulgey woods."
The whole exercise just basically proved what Tovani states in her book.
The kids need the added support. They need to talk about what they have
read to understand it. They have to hear the language in order to make the
pictures necessary to fully appreciate it!
Mary Anne
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Ellen replied:
Good readers often skip words that don't make sense to them as long as they
understand the general content of the sentence. I think listening to text
helps students understand that concept. Imagine if, while attempting to
speak a foreign language, we tried to interpret every little word! I have
found that I get a fairly good understanding of what others are trying to
say to me in French or Spanish if I cue in on the "voice", mannerisms,
and words I DO know.
Ellen
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And Deb added:
Your students comments have given me much food for thought. My kids used
to be able to conduct experiments and talk about what they observed. They
could even do decent lab reports, sketches etc., but when it came to transferring
the learning to texts and basic science concepts there was a breakdown.
I'm thinking that the hands-on and the read alouds that I always did are
keepers, but that I needed to do more of the explicit modeling that made
the connections with and for them. Do others experience this breakdown between
lab work and student understanding of the underlying content?
Deb
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Can't mark up books? Here's a source for "highlighting tape."
I just got a catalog from Crystal
Springs Books (crystalsprings.com). I know that for me with only a classroom
set of books, teaching highlighting is difficult. Even if they had their
own text for a year, we don't want them highlighting. But Crystal Springs
has highlighting tape--students stick it on and it is easily removeable
and reuseable (or so the catalog says!) I am thinking about purchasing some
to try next year.
LeeAnn
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LeeAnn shares a frustration:
Ellen Berg wrote: "If we are on a team situation, I think it makes
sense to work together as a team to be sure all of our students are able
to comprehend whatever text they encounter."
I so agree. Here's my frustration: I can't get my content team members on
the band wagon to use some of these strategies. I've offered to give "inservices"
during our planning times, after school, whatever it takes. No go. So I
borrowed a science text and had my students bring their science texts to
literature class and I went over the strategies with them. When the science
teacher got to the unit I had been using as a model and the kids were easily
comprehending the text, he complained that he didn't have to teach the material!
I couldn't win for losing!
LeeAnn
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Sharon replied:
Unbelieveable! What a wonderful opportunity for him to enrich the text with
labs, projects, additional reading, etc.
Sharon
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Mary Anne has an idea about engaging other team members:
LeeAnn I have a suggestion that might work. There is a fabulous article
in the current ENC Focus--a great journal by the way--about a science teacher
who realized her kids "read it--but didn't get it!" during a unit
on photosynthesis. The article is all about what she did--using reading
strategies. The article is available on line at http://www.enc.org You will
have to click on enc focus magazine and the title of the article is Concept
Maps by Judy Ridgeway.
It is basically a science/math magazine. They might be willing to listen
to someone in their own discipline!
Good Luck--
Mary Anne
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Ellen commented:
I guess the big question here is, why? Why did he respond in this manner?
If he saw how effective previewing material and using focused reading strategies
was, why did he continue to have a negative response?
I have found (with the wisdom of several years of teaching and the ineffectiveness
at railing about the lack of cooperation of teammates!) that there is always
an underlying reason why someone does what they do, in this case, failing
to embrace a new teaching approach. Most teachers DO want to make a difference
in their students' lives, so what holds them back?
Adults are very much like the children we teach. Perhaps your colleague
is afraid that he will not be able to teach reading very effectively, either
because he feels inadequate as a teacher, or because he is a poor reader
himself. Maybe he is in some power struggle that he has created.....maybe
it's jealousy? Is he older than you?
So many things play into a teacher's willingness to try something new or
buy into something. What can it be here?
Not that that's an easy question to answer; if I could answer that question
in regards to some of my own colleagues AND figure out just how to address
it, I would be in hog heaven.
Ellen Berg
--------------------------------------------------------------
Reading teachers have no special magic, Mary Anne says:
Ellen-- I agree 100%! I have found so many teachers are afraid and think
that those of us who teach reading have some kind of "magic" that
gets kids to unlock the mystery of the printed word. Ask a middle school
teacher if they would like to teach first grade. Nine times out of ten they
would say no! And the resounding reason is that they would have to teach
kids to read.
One of the strategies that I have found successful in working with content
teachers is getting them to use graphic organizers for the kids as study
guides. After the teacher does one or two--I suggest they create the pattern
and let the kids fill in the information. Slowly but surely I assure them
they are teaching reading comprehension skills!
Another thing I have done that works successfully is offer to co-teach a
lesson. They have figured out my favorite line is--You teach the science
and I'll teach the reading!
Not only is it fun to do it together, but we all learn something!
Mary Anne
--------------------------------------------------------------
LeeAnn says Tovani has raised her awareness:
Myrna wrote: "Chris's technique of telling her own story with fake
reading would certainly open things up."
I have to admit that she opened things up for me! Having always been an
avid reader and not having had comprehension problems, Tovani made me take
a very hard look not just at what I consider my struggling readers. I had
never even considered that my A-B students might be faking it!
LeeAnn
--------------------------------------------------------------
Ellen responds:
I, too, have always been an excellent, avid reader. To a large degree, I
think being an effortless reader has handicapped my ability to be an excellent
reading teacher. Until last summer, I really didn't "get" why
students didnt' like to read. I finally conducted an action research project
to find out why they didn't like to read, and it basically boiled down to
comprehension. One boy said, "When you read, you are supposed to see
the pictures in your mind, but some of us can't see those pictures."
Talk about your AHA! moment!
I think one of the most important things Tovani describes in her book is
the need for teachers to study and actively think about their own processes
as they read. Tovani's book is not just a "here's what you do with
the kids" prescription sheet; no, it requires the teacher to develop
him or herself as a reader as well. I am finding it a challenge to bring
the unconscious to the conscious; does anyone have any ideas about how to
do that more easily?
Ellen
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mary Anne finds that Tovani's ideas work with gifted kids, too:
LeeAnn-- I have spent a lot of time working with gifted kids and many of
the things Tovani says fits well with those kids as well. They have a great
deal of general knowledge as well as the ability to pick things up quickly
from conversation. Many of them don't bother to read it and end up missing
half of the information!
Some do the skim thing and think that they "got" it.
Mary Anne
--------------------------------------------------------------
Leighann shares some read-aloud ideas:
I read aloud a Walter Dean Myers book called _Slam!_ to my 7th graders.
The kids are begging for me to read another one, and one girl saw a Myers
book on my shelf and asked if she could please borrow it. Another boy who
is a very reluctant reader asked if he could see my book to write down the
author's name. Yet another child said, "Man, that book is like a movie!!"
The majority of my kids said it would be cool to read another book by the
same author aloud... wish I had a class set!!
We're reading folktales and writing a folktale, so for fun I read _The True
Story of the Three little Pigs_. They ate it up. Even though it's an "elementary"
book, they loved it. I'm going to do read alouds every day!!
Leighann
[See this later Listserv conversation about
Read-Aloud Books!]
--------------------------------------------------------------
Joanne offers some further thoughts about read-alouds p; and Kipling:
"... at last he came to the banks of the great grey-green, greasy Limpopo
River, all set about with fever-trees, precisely as Kolokolo Bird had said."
I am a librarian today because my Children's Literature professor read the
story The Elephant's
Child by Rudyard Kipling aloud to the class of college seniors. You
could hear a pin drop while she was reading. It was literally at the end
of that story that I decided to become a librarian. Folktales and fairytales
are NOT just for the very young. So many higher thinking skills as well
as excellent writing styles can be taught with familiar tales - not to mention
that the vocabulary in many of them can be very challenging. :) Any time
we can get kids connecting to great stories, we are creating readers. Somewhere
(was it here?) someone called such stories/books the "AHA!" experience.
Just as The Elephant's Child was for me so long ago.
Another book to read aloud in the lower middle grades is Call
it Courage by Armstrong Sperry. I used to use it for book talks when
I was a Children's Librarian and the students, especially the boys clamored
for more. At the workshop "Strategies to Enhance Learning in the Content
Areas" that I attended last month, Judith
Irvin, the presenter, used this book as an example for a Think-Pair-Share
Cooperative learning strategy and a Predicting and Confirming Activity.
It was terrific. If anyone is interested, I can describe what we did. -
Also, this strategy worked equally well with a social studies reading that
we did.
Joanne
--------------------------------------------------------------
Anne enthused:
Wow, Joanne! You also loved The Elephant's Child by Rudyard Kipling?
I can't count the times I listened to it, read it myself, and later read
it to my children. I still have the children's book that I read from. Thanks
for mentioning that story. You brought back a lot of warm, wonderful memories,
complete with sounds, smells, and a balmy climate!
Anne
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon describes how she integrates read-alouds with other techniques:
I have just begun Bloomability
with my classes and I am having a wonderful time integrating Chris's ideas
along with other ideas I've gained from the listserv. I love to read aloud
to my students. I read, they read, I read, etc. We pause, discuss, look
up words, I relate past experiences that come to mind from events in the
book, the students jump on the bandwagon and we can hardly get through a
chapter! I guide them to notice the literary devices used by the author
(dreams as metaphor, the bubble, the dot), point of view (Dinnie feeling
like she was kidnapped, her mother feeling like she was offering her daughter
a wonderful experience).
I am careful to comment that appropriate discussion contributions are good
reading strategies. The students are beaming and I am thrilled.
During a LA Department meeting, the librarian brought up the fact that some
students have found out how to cut and paste book reviews to use as original
text in their book reports. I brought up the idea of using alternative suggestions
for book reports eg. What past experiences related to ......in the book,
or What did you wonder when you read....., How could the book have ended
differently? What background knowledge did you have before you began reading
the book....what did you learn? etc. Reworking the book reports, avoiding
summaries, is a sure way to avoid plagerism.
Has anyone used highlighter tape? Does it work well? We could not afford
to let students highlight books.
Sharon in Seattle
--------------------------------------------------------------
About that highlighter tape:
Sharon-- I have used highlighter tape. Yes, it works but be careful not
to leave it on too long. The color will stick to the paper if left on too
long!
Mary Anne
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon,
I totally agree with you that the way to avoid plagiarisms, whether it is
in book reports, or ANY assignment, is to think creatively of assignments
for which cutting and pasting just won't work. It requires more effort on
our part to think of new and different ways to teach and learn, but is certain
to be more interesting! Thanks for reminding us.
Joanne
--------------------------------------------------------------
About those book reports:
I think it is essential to rework the standard book report. Think about
most book reports; all they ask for is a low-level retelling of the story.
I know I cheated on many a report, and I read voraciously! If we are going
to use book reports, then we need to ask for more involvement of the student
in and with the story.
On another note, I read Bloomability last month, and I loved it!
I think Sharon Creech has a beautiful writing style and a wonderful command
of the language. I picked Bloomability up because I loved Walk Two Moons
when I read that. This week, I recommended Bloomability to one of
my students, and I asked her to tell me what she thought of the ending.
I told her I was completely dissatisfied because she kind of leaves you
hanging. (Personally, I think she's planning a sequel...) In any case, it
has opened up a conversation about literature with a student. I think we
need to hold more conversations with our students about books--what we both
liked, didn't like, authors, etc.--a fewer talking ats. In Mosaic
Keene described teachers having a lot of whole-group and one-on-one conversations.
I like that.
Ellen Berg
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon puts in a good word for Holes:
One of the reasons I love the book, Holes (I'm so excited that the Seattle
Children's Theater will be performing Holes next season with the play adapted
by Sacher), and View From Saturday is the variety of topics to explore eg.
dysfunctional families, the effect of divorce, why children end up in jail,
how we cope with stress, the under dog, survival, voice, point of view,
etc.
We spend such a long time spinning off the stories with writing assignments,
research on endangered species, Switzerland, old wild west, penal systems,
etc. that the ending doesn't seem that important.
Sharon
--------------------------------------------------------------
Ellen wants to know more about Judith Irvin:
Joanne wrote: "At the workshop 'Strategies to Enhance Learning in the
Content Areas' that I attended last month, Judith Irvin, the presenter,
used this book as an example for a Think-Pair-Share Cooperative learning
strategy and a Predicting and Confirming Activity. It was terrific. If anyone
is interested, I can describe what we did. - Also, this strategy worked
equally well with a social studies reading that we did."
Joanne,
Please share the strategies/activities with us! Also, how do you see what
she did fitting in across the curriculum?
Ellen
--------------------------------------------------------------
Joanne responds:
Thanks for asking, Ellen. I just hope that I don't bore experienced teachers
for whom this is old hat. Being new at this, everything presented at the
workshop was fascinating to me. Teaching strategies weren't taught in the
Dark Ages of my B.S. (or at least my gray brain cells don't remember them.)
Any subject teacher can use the Predicting and Confirming Strategy, so apply
whatever you read here to your content area. It is a pre-reading activity
using vocabulary words, prior knowledge, and predictions about the text
to be read.
The first thing we were told was that this was a lesson about the Hausa
people of Nigeria - a group with whom none of us were familiar. We were
put into groups of four or so and given a list of Hausa words and asked,
"Based on the words commonly used by the Hausa people, what are they
like?" There were 45 words on the list ranging from cotton, rainy season,
Koran, tent, camel, mining, amulet, mother, ghost, trader, adobe, slavery,
farm, yams, etc. Based on these words that we knew related to the Hausa
people, we made predictions, then shared them with the class..... what we
thought their culture and society were like. This would also be a good time
to jigsaw the groups and have them share with one another their predictions.
Next, Judy presented new information (in this case, photographs of a Hausa
city, as well as anecdotal info), and we modified our statements. We had
the idea by then and stopped, but in a real classroom, the next step would
be for the students to read a selection in their
I especially liked t he concept of having a purpose for reading. Our students
won't go "cold" into the chapter, but will be looking for those
already introduced and familiar words to confirm what they predicted, or
to discover that the concepts they thought were true, in fact, meant something
different. As I said, this worked equally well with the novel _Call it Courage_
( words like barrier reef, jungle, fear, shark, shame, uninhabited, eaters-of-men,
Tavana Nui, Moana, The Sea God, etc.) and would definitely be an exciting
introduction to an exciting story. I can see the same thing being done for
a science lesson or lab. If I saw words like mold, orange, petrie dish,
spore, I would probably get an idea of what the experiment was going to
be about, but I would also probably have some surprises that I didn't expect.
So it was with the Hausa people. There were enough words in the list to
provide apparent contradictions, so it made us eager to discover what we
were predicting correctly and what
My question to you experienced teachers: Do you think this strategy would
grab your students' attention? There is lots of talking, sharing, co-teaching,
co-learning, and possibilities for a few "Aha's!" As an adult,
all I can say is, it intrigued me and seemed a whole lot better than struggling
through a chapter in a textbook about a group of people, that on the surface,
I might think I didn't care learning about. I felt like I had a stake in
finding out if I was right in my surmises. But is that just because I am
weird and like to learn??? *wrinkled brow here*
If interested, I can scan in the two lesson pages describing this activity
for the Hausa and for _Call it Courage_ and email them to anyone. Only trouble
is, it will have to wait til I am home again in three weeks and can use
my scanner. However, if interested, send me your email addresses and I will
keep a record and send them in a month.
Joanne
--------------------------------------------------------------
Deb has some other thoughts about picture book read-alouds:
I used picture book read alouds regularly in my middle school science &
technology classes. I also had my students design picture books for second
graders. The project was very successful and my kids became experts in their
subject areas. They took great care in developing their sentences, figuring
out the key concepts, drawing the illustrations etc. At our "publishing"
party they read their books to the second graders. It was a proud and happy
time!
Deb
--------------------------------------------------------------
Deb raises the issue of teachers who do not read regularly:
Ellen wrote: "Perhaps your colleague is afraid that he will not be
able to teach reading very effectively, either because he feels inadequate
as a teacher, or because he is a poor reader himself."
I've been wondering about teachers who don't read... Lots of teachers claim
they don't have time to read or they ask in an accusatory tone, "how
do you find time to read?" I need to read every day. I need to read
lots of different types of text regularly. If I don't read regularly, I
feel stressed. I rarely read out of a sense of duty, I read because I want
to know and my flights to the shelf, keep me in touch with both my self
and others.
Maybe some of our colleagues had negative experiences with reading themselves...what
do you think?
Deb
--------------------------------------------------------------
LeeAnn also wonders:
I wonder about them too. We are having reading week next week and I am in
charge of an activity where I will video tape staff members talking about
a favorite book and then we will show the tapes each morning. At one point
I worded it as "talking about a book that has impacted your life"
and one of my team members said she didn't have one. I explained to her
that it could just be a book she really liked, but I felt sad for her that
she has never been impacted by any book. I have so many that I could take
up the whole week by myself discussing all the books!
LeeAnn
--------------------------------------------------------------
Susan Shull joins the chat with some comments about fake reading:
This is my first chance to check my email for the last couple of days, and
I am getting so excited reading the entries. I haven't had a chance to read
all the book yet (DARN!), but I have loved what I read so far. Yesterday,
I mentioned to one of my classes (8th grade Lang. Arts) about fake reading
and described some times that I have done it myself. Immediately, one boy
said, " I do that." I love this kid anyway. He has so many problems-
learning and otherwise, but he is such a nice boy. I told him I was proud
of him that he had the guts to admit it. Now comes the task of trying to
help him. I'm going to try to implement a few of the strategies in class
and compare the class to the others.
I have also done several read alouds this year. The kids love them, look
forward to them, and get mad at me when I skip it. However, some of my peers
make me feel like I am just trying to kill time. Shame on them.
On to the book,
Susan
--------------------------------------------------------------
Laurie replies:
Susan, Good for you for reading aloud with your students and sharing something
about yourself with them (fake reading). Your peers have no right to make
a judgement about what you do in your class; trying to help your students....isn't
that what teaching is all about? Maybe they are the kind of teachers who
give an assignment like: "Read the next 10 pages in the book and answer
the comprehension questions at the end of the chapter." I wonder how
successful they are at helping students understand what they've read?!
Best of luck,
Laurie
--------------------------------------------------------------
A question for the non-Language Arts teachers on the list:
I am curious. For those of you who do not teach LA, what strategies from
_I Read It_ do you think would be most helpful and natural for you to use
in your own classrooms? I think some (like Fix It strategies) might be good
to introduce in the LA classroom (but I could be wrong), but others could
certainly be introduced elsewhere. What do you think?
Ellen
--------------------------------------------------------------
A comment about curriculum overload:
I have always felt that some of the problem has to do with the amount of
curriculum that "the powers that be" squeeze into the curriculum.
I was at a regional Social Studies meeting last year and that was the cry
of the teachers: "Lets cover less and do it better!" Until that
message is internalized by state (and in my case Provincial) leaders we
will continue to be pressured for time.
Brenda Dyck
--------------------------------------------------------------
Who has a separate reading program?
John directed us to the article: A Primary Subject Goes Secondary"
[Reading is not just for elementary school anymore.]
How many of your schools separate LA into two separate components: Reading
and Writing/Grammar? What do you think about this?
I'm still thinking....
Brenda
--------------------------------------------------------------
LeeAnn says her school divides the two:
We do, although we call them Literature and English. When we made the move
from a junior high to the middle school concept there was talk of eliminating
the literature/reading and just having a language arts class. The reasoning
was to create teacher teams of four rather than five because all the teaming
models were that way. But all of the LA teachers lobbied pretty hard to
keep it the way it is. I love it because the English teacher and I work
very closely together and I think it enhances learning.
If there wasn't a lot of communication between a reading teacher and an
English teacher, I could see potential problems with curricular overlap.
Another possible disadvantage to having the classes separated is that we
have to fit five cores into the schedule and with only four, each class
could be longer. But we also have the freedom to add some other topics to
our classes; I have a fairly extensive poetry unit that I designed and our
English teacher takes one marking period to teach a careers class for the
8th grade.
LeeAnn
--------------------------------------------------------------
Naomi's school has yet another structure:
In regards to combining LA and reading, at our school we further combine
subjects by having a single teacher teach humanities, which includes all
aspects of the Language Arts, as well as Social studies. We allocate between
11 and 13 periods for this a week. Of course it's never enough time. But
each teacher sees only 2 sections of students and it reduces the number
of teachers that students see, in accordance with Middle School philosophy.
Naomi,
NYC
--------------------------------------------------------------
And Ellen's school yet another:
We don't separate LA into two separate components. I teach a class called
Communication Arts that integrates all aspects of communication into one
course. I see every class every day for 80-minutes a period, so that helps.
I believe the research indicates (and I'm afraid I am lacking in specifics)
that reading, writing, and language should not be taught separately; at
least, that's what they were teaching when I graduated from university 7
years ago. I think you CAN teach them as separate courses as long as the
teachers collaborate closely to draw those connections among the three (or
four, if you count speaking) areas. I think the difficulty comes finding
teachers who want/can collaborate together effectively. I'm in my 5th year
of teaching, and I've just now found someone who wants to collaborate.
I guess the devil really is in the details.
Ellen
--------------------------------------------------------------
My school does that this year (and in the past) and we are moving to combine
LA/SS next year either with reading incorporated in the subject areas or
as a separate subject. My opinion is that reading should not stand alone.
It gives the wrong message to the students. Although, I do not object to
a narrowed down elective eg. African literature, primary source writings,
world culture literature, etc.
Sharon in Seattle
--------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Ellen and I also think that reading, writing and speaking should
be taught in all major subjects. Making the time for collaboration is critical,
and of course finding a team who really wants to do so. Don't give up, it's
unbelievably cool when it works!
Deb
--------------------------------------------------------------
A question about how well teachers use librarian skills and knowledge:
Joanne, (and others!)
I was thinking about what a wonderful librarian we have at our building,
and I have the feeling we don't take advantage of all she has to offer us
in terms of reading instruction. Just some backround.....we have a full-time
librarian for a school of roughly 350 students. We don't have scheduled
library time--we are on a flex schedule where we can schedule whole-class
time in the library or send small groups of students for reading, research,
etc. (I love this model....it's easier to set authentic purposes for accessing
the library & it's very compatible with our program.)
I was wondering what you, a former librarian, thought could be done to team
with the librarian on comprehension instruction. Our librarian is open to
new things but doesn't know much (yet!) about the comprehension strategies
in _I Read It_. How can we best utilize her talents and ability to work
with individuals and small groups?
Ellen Berg
--------------------------------------------------------------
Marsha describes her librarian relationship:
I am so lucky because I think I teach with one of the greatest librarians
ever. Flex is her middle name. I will try and outline what we (as a school)
did this week. Passionate is her other middle name. She even went on a dog
sledding trip several years ago so she would have firsthand knowledge to
share with the 6th graders when they studied the Iditarod. Dewey Halverson
always comes to our school and talks to the kids about dog sledding---he
brings Lumpy his lead dog. Lots of the 8th graders write about this experience
in their farewell letter to our school, remembering it all the way from
6th grade. Please remember that it was American Library Week so some things
were more elaborate than normal, but it really is pretty typical.
She teaches a team at-a-time the Dewey Decimal system via mini-lecutre and
discovery. This week she was running the performance testing for that team's
unit. Students have to show they can locate resources and shelve books.
She made a website and had a resource specialist download special Dewey
Decimal system screensavers on all the computer screens.
In honor of the week, she did going on a Bear Hunt for the 6th grade complete
with honey, a video about bears, and so and so forth.
She hosted the Read Aloud where she invites well known local celebrities
to come and read aloud to the kids. Teachers sign up for none or as many
of the different guests that they want. We had local TV personalities, a
Chiefs football safety player, a KU basketball coach, our principal, and
a Holocaust survivor. They read their favorite story and share how reading
has impacted their life and/or how they use it in their job. She's been
doing this for 12 years and many of the read alouders come every year. She
has a rocking chair, lamp and refreshments. Our kids are mesmorized by them---100-150
6th,7th and/or 8th graders at a time. Then everyone always wants to check
out the story that was read, of course.
She taught research skills to a team doing research on the human body. The
kids learned Reader's Guide, and online magazines. She uses a presentation
board and the kids love it because if they know what they're talking about
she invites them to come up and show on the Team Board. (It projects the
computer screen on a white board thing that you can touch to use as the
mouse.)They were using QuickPads (stand alone keyboards that then link into
computers) to draft their outlines and she taught them the technology skills
to use those and spell check. We don't have enough computers or a computer
lab, so these QuickPads are our way around the lack of computer labs.
One eighth grade team is finishing up a unit on Genocide. She collaborated
with another teacher in California who had written a terrific webquest that
tied the Nazi holocaust to Rwanda, Bosnia and Cambodia. Our librarian, the
team teachers also collaborated with the building's 2-D art teacher to learn
propaganda techniques (which she taught in a mini-lecture) to develop posters
that conveyed the essence of their research efforts. Then she read them
Elie Wiesel's speech on Indifference and the students are writing a persuasive
essay for their peers on why indifference is a dangerous peril. The posters
could take your breath away because they so "got it" and were
able to communicate intolerance and hatred in them. I think these will be
lessons that will stick for a lifetime.
Since it was Earth Day, she organized the Pennies for the Planet annual
drive. She is vitally concerned about the oil drilling possibilities in
the Arctic Wildlife Refuge and so she offered a program on that through
the library. Students read a Wall Street Journal article, a downloaded NPR
show with Inuit, BP Amoco corporate executives and a Sierra Club representative
and tied that into the Time Magazine open letter to President Bush on global
warming. (The letter was signed by Jimmy Carter, Mikael Gorbachev, Harrison
Ford, Jane Goodall, et al) The kids had to take the letter home and discuss
it with their families and report back on how they were personally going
to change behavior so that drilling wouldn't be necessary. The kids came
back with plans to turn off lights when they left the room, walking to the
grocery store, walking to rent movies, and so on. Lastly we sent emails
to President Bush urging him to take whatever position the kids felt was
approrpiate for oil drilling. Some supported it and some didn't.
And these are just the special programs. We also had our visiting author
this week---Ben Michaelsen. Wow!!! He is terrific. His books so touch the
hearts of 7th graders. See him if you can. You must read Petey and his newest
book, Touching Spirit Bear. (This happens once a year when our district
brings in the author for all 7th grade students.) But she runs a huge pre-visit
workshop for teachers and students. Almost every student has read at least
one of the author's books, she leads book students groups for kids who want
to read more, and helps teachers with an author treasure hunt so the kids
know about the personal life of the author. She comes into their rooms and
book talks the author's titles so they know what they'll hear about and
have the opportunity to read the books before the visit.
Last week she took a group of students to see an author, Brian Jacques,
who was speaking at a local library branch near our school. She ran an after
school reading group and then they concluded by going to see him and getting
their books signed.
I know I've rambled, but she is really outstanding. I love teaching with
her. It's scary when we get together because we keep saying, "What
if......................", and "What if........................".
And then everyone scatters. She is so humble and giving and would be glad
to help anyone do almost anything.
Marsha
--------------------------------------------------------------
Former librarian Joanne replies to Ellen:
Thanks for asking an excellent question. I am thrilled to read that you
have a wonderful librarian and also to read about Marsha's school librarian.
What a great world this would be if all our teachers and librarians had
middle names of Zest and Passionate! Since I am applying for both classroom
teacher and school librarian jobs for the fall, I want to have a good answer
to the question of what a school librarian can offer in ALL areas of literacy.
And, as we all know, without comprehension, there is little literacy.
Be aware, though, that other than the courses all teachers take in reading,
and the children and young adult literature classes that librarians take,
the teacher-librarian does not, as a rule, have any "extra", specific
training in reading comprehension.
However, for all this, I see the school librarian as able to have a dramatic
effect in all areas of reading, since she/he is trained to know the literature.
One of our main jobs is trying to match students with books we hope they
will love. I would like to see all teacher-librarians do book talks (or
organize them) for individual classes and large groups in order to share
favorite titles. This seems a great time to model Keene's idea of making
connections. The book talker can share how the book reminded her of other
books, or how it relates to societal issues, or even how it was totally
new and different, and how she was able to internalize the "foreign"
ideas (the novel _The Giver_ comes to mind here.)
Another important activity perfect for the school librarian is to co-ordinate
book discussion groups. When a particular title becomes the rage among a
group, we can organize a discussion group for interested students. Who doesn't
love to talk about a book they have fallen in love with. We can then suggest
more titles a particular group might want to read next. The librarian can
facilitate the meetings and again, offer comprehension strategies for the
students and sharing activities for them to share their enjoyment of the
literature. As Marsha points out, some librarians are naturals at this.
Some librarians may be bogged down with so many other assigned duties that
these "fun" things take a back seat. Yet, I am reminded by our
listserv member who decided to focus on the crucial element of her job (the
teaching and the kids) and let everything else take second place. School
librarians have to have the courage to do the same thing.
One more crucial role is to make certain teachers know about the many, many
excellent titles available to read aloud to their classes, and not just
the standard novels always read. My daughter had _Charlotte's Web_ read
to her three years in a row in primary school! The posts about curriculum
mapping bears this out. Good teachers do a terrific job of sharing favorite
titles with their students. Librarians must make certain that classroom
teachers have at their fingertips a myriad of excellent titles from which
to choose.
I am going to give more thought to how the teacher-librarian can help with
reading comprehension. When (if) I come up with any creative ideas, I will
post them. Mind you, none of this touches on the other equally crucial librarian
role of teaching Information Literacy!
Joanne
--------------------------------------------------------------
Naomi makes another point about librarians:
Wow, that is so great. Our library operates in the same way, but with one
librarian for 1675 students.
I seem to remember from "Mosaic of Thought" that the librarians
played a very important role in the development of reading workshops and
strategic reading.
If I remember correctly the teacher and librarian would sometimes model
what good readers do (think aloud) in a dialogue in front of students. I
cannot find the particular passage in Mosaic (maybe it was from a workshop....I
have such a sharp image in my mind) but on page 78 of Mosaic, Ellin Keene
does refer to a "study group of teachers and librarians." So it
is clear that librarians should definately be included in study opportunities.
Naomi, NYC
--------------------------------------------------------------
Deb returns our attention to the Tovani book:
I was just looking over some of the tools that Tovani gave us in the book
and I think that the Comprehension Constructor would be particularly useful
when reading non-fiction, like a science or social studies passage or chapter.
I was wondering if anyone had tried this particular device out...?
Deb
--------------------------------------------------------------
Susan asks about using Tovani's book:
Are you folks planning to incorporate some of the ideas from the book this
year-assuming you are like me and just now reading it? Where are you going
to begin? My head is spinning with ideas, but I want to present the ideas
in the most beneficial way.
This is our third year with an 80 minute Language Arts class. I love it.
Before the switch, I had to teach English ( including writing) to all 150+
7th and 8th graders.
--------------------------------------------------------------
LeeAnn had a question for Susan:
So now you don't see all of them? How are they split up? How many LA teachers
are there? How do you coordinate your curriculums? Sorry for all the questions,
but I would love to go to some kind of block where I had my students for
80 minutes, so I quite interested in the logistics!
LeeAnn
--------------------------------------------------------------
Susan replied:
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I only teach the 8th graders now.
Another teacher has the 7th graders (3 classes-80 minutes each.) Three days
a week we spend the first 40 minutes in the computer lab with a computer
teacher and we do all of our writing during this time. It has been great
to have another teacher in the room to help with editing. I hadn't thought
I would like team teaching, but I guess that is really what we do during
this time. We work very well together and she is a very good former 3rd
grade teacher. The remainder of the period is spend in my room. We do Reading
Workshop 2 periods a week and use our Lit book the rest of the time. Hope
this helps.
Susan
--------------------------------------------------------------
Ellen shared her plans with Susan:
I am planning on implementing the ideas from _I Read It_ and _Mosaic_ next
year, but I, too, am struggling with the nuts and bolts of how to go about
it. I want to move my classroom to a reading/writing workshop format, and
that in itself seems to be a pretty big challenge.
As I read those two books, I found myself wanting to "do it all"
immediately. I think we forget that the teachers who have integrated all
of those strategies and activities have spent a good deal of time thinking,
planning, and trying new things. They didn't accomplish it all overnight,
and it's hard to remember that sometimes.
I think I'm going to try to start of with either "fix it" or text
connections. I may not hit every strategy, but what I don't hit, the 7th
grade teacher can pick up the next year.
I would be really interested to hear from anyone who has figured out a good
way to work all of this in an authentic setting. What should we avoid? What
really worked for you?
Ellen
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon described her plans:
Determined to change my ways, one thing I have done is change my "book
chat" oral reports to include a question rubric similar to this:
--Make eye contact with your audience, be well prepared, and speak loud
enough to be heard in the back of the room.
--Tell us the name, author, genre, and number of pages. Then...
1. Relate a past experience to the story
2. What was something you wondered while reading the book?
3. Did the book remind you of another book?
4. Did anything confuse you about the story? Did it get resolved?
5. Tell us about some interesting details or event
6. What was the author's message?
7. Would you recommend this book to someone? Why?
8. Name at least two words that you did not know and had to look up in the
dictionary.
Sharon in Seattle
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mary is using Strategies That Work in her reading class:
I have based my 7th grade reading class this year (2-5 tested grade levels
below actual grade level) on Strategies
That Work, a book that extends Mosaic of Thought. We started with connections,
then questioning, visualizing, making inferences, and determining importance
in text. We did a variety of activities using a variety of materials. Now
we are reading a novel together (A Long Way From Chicago), and as they read
a chapter, they can do any sort of response that will help them understand
the text.
Some are doing double entry journal responses with a summary and response,
the response including connections and questions. Some are doing mind mapping,
mapping out each scene and labelling connecting threads, and one boy is
doing symbolic story representation (from Wilhelm's You
Gotta Be the Book) which involves making cutouts of important characters,
ideas, forces, etc., and then telling the story using the cutouts.
For the rest of the year we'll do independent, self-selected reading, and
they'll vary the 'strategies' they use to understand text. i wasn't sure
where i would go with this at the beginning of the year, so we've gotten
here slowly. i think if i were to do it again, i'd spend less time on each
strategy, then vary fiction and non-fiction self-selected reading, giving
the students time to practice each strategy, and then leave enough time
to talk in detail about how to notice when you're not understanding, and
how to figure out what to do about it. this seems to be a great weakness
of my students.
Mary
--------------------------------------------------------------
John sends the first message from Cris Tovani:
Dear Booklisters -- Cris Tovani has sent me her first response for
the list. I have added her email to our BOOKLIST subscription list, so I'm
hopeful that from now on, she'll be able to read your messages one by one,
and respond to any that she has the time and inclination to respond to.
Here's what Cris sent us...
Dear Colleagues,
This is the very first listserv/chat I've done so please forgive any
internet no no's that I may make. I read over the 70 some entries and notice
there seemed to be several concerns that I might address. I was impressed
with the variety and thought that teachers shared in their emails.
First--The idea of fake reading:
I think a lot of kids who fake read know they are doing it. We aren't
going to surprise them by telling them they don't understand what they read.
They already know it. Many are relieved when they find out there is someone
there to help them move beyond barking at print to making sense of print.
It's my opinion that everyone at some point fake reads. There are many times
when I do it. Usually it is when I am tired or reading difficult text or
thinking about something else. It is in those circumstances that I consciously
have to apply a strategy to help bring me back to the words.
I share these fake reading times with my students. I also offer them the
opportunity to bring in material that they can read and that I might fake
read. Usually students catch me on video game instructions, the auto mechanic
textbook, lyrics to rap songs. (I've never get those.) The way people understand
words on a page is a mysterious thing. Millions of dollars are spent annually
trying to figure this out. Kids often think there is a trick to discovering
the "true meaning of a book." Many of our colleagues who haven't
had the luxury of reading training also find reading comprehension as a
mysterious occurrence. No wonder they hesitate to volunteer to teach reading.
The problem is even compounded when teachers themselves don't read.
As a fake reader throughout college, I desperately wanted to know how to
make sense of text. My teachers didn't know how to help me. At the time,
many thought that if you could read words you could understand them. They
didn't know how to help me think as I read. I wasn't taught how to hold
my thinking so I could reuse it in a discussion or in a paper. We know a
lot more now how to help kids think when they read. Giving them opportunities
to read and think is one of the best ways I know to improving their comprehension.
However, that takes time. We can't teach everything. We must give time to
what we value.
Second -- Modeling our thinking- helping
teachers other than reading teachers buy into instruction:
As reading teachers we have had training in knowing how to help kids
be better readers. Many of our colleagues have not had that opportunity.
They don't know where to begin.
In order to get teachers to "buy into reading instruction" I have
to show them how powerful their awareness of the readi ng strategies they
use is. What is it they do when they read their content? Get science teachers
to see what it is that they do when they read science stuff. Get math teachers
to see what it is they do when they read word problems or graphs. Each content
area has specific pieces of text they have to read. What do expert readers
of that material do?
Once teachers recognize what they do as expert readers of their content,
it's time to begin modeling those strategies for students. It doesn't have
to be a long involved process. It could be as simple as saying, "Hey,
guys, this is what I do when I first read a word problem: (Teacher then
shares the information with students)."
There seems to be this pervasive idea that in order to be reading teachers
we have to forsake our content and buy a really expensive reading programs.
I wonder if kids take the information they've learned in those really expensive
reading programs outside of the reading program class. We have bright people
in our profession. Reading these emails convinces me even more of this notion.
We don't want to "teacher proof" our classrooms. We need to share
our expertise.
That expertise includes how we crack the code of our content specific material.
Third-- Highlighters
I hope I never wrote that we should teach kids to highlight everything
all the time. I did share an activity where kids can better recognize confusion
by highlighting everything. Pink is used to highlight parts they understand
well enough that they could share it will a classmate and yellow is used
to highlight parts in the text that don't make sense or need clarification.
This activity should be done sparingly as it has a high burn out rate. My
purpose for the activity is to help readers identify confusion.
We can't hightlight in our books either. I avoid this dilemma by copying
a few pages of the book. Usually it is a confusing spot that would lend
itself to the purpose I am trying to convey.
It is difficult to highlight if you don't have a clear purpose in mind.
When I was in college I highlighted everything. I didn't know what was important.
I didn't know what was important until I had a purpose for my reading. If
you are someone that has difficulty highlighting yourself, return to your
purpose and decide what information you want to glean from the text. Decide
why you are reading the piece.
Helping kids have a clear purpose for their reading is also crucial. Do
you want them to read for specific steps in a procedure or events leading
up to a conflict? Do you want readers to read for questions they have or
do you want them make personal connections to the text so they can better
relate to the character? Defining our purpose for the reading is extremely
helpful to students. If we give students a purpose for their reading and
then tell them how they will be using the information, they may have more
buy in to the assignment.
I am enjoying the dialogue. I hope these responses are helpful.
Cris Tovani
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon Moerman shares her enthusiasm for Tovani's book:
Cris Tovani's book is SO good. One of the things I liked was that I could
immediately implement her ideas in my classroom. For example, one
thing I did was talk to my students about the "voices in my head."
My students already think I'm a little nuts (8th graders--what do they know??),
so it was big fun talking about the voices in my head. By the time I was
finished (I admit I was a little dramatic), they had caught on to the idea,
understood, AND were talking about their own voices.
I also made a handout (giving CT total credit, of course) that says, "IF
THIS OCCURS" at the top with a list of things that happens to us as
we read and lose focus; and "THEN STOP. TRY THESE FIX-UP STRATEGIES"
at the bottom of the page with "fix up strategies" listed. I copied
it on bright pink paper and the kids are using it for a bookmark. What better
moment can there be than a "non-reader" telling you he actually
tried "one of those things" and it worked!
The best part, well one of the best parts, is the kids are using some really
good comprehension strategies and they are seeing their own improvement.
Their reading is better and so is their confidence. THANKS, CRIS TOVANI!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Ellen responded to Cris:
Cris, Welcome to the booklist! I can't tell you how thrilled we all are
that you are taking the time to share your ideas about reading instruction
with us.
You wrote: "In order to get teachers to "buy into reading instruction"
I have to show them how powerful their awareness of the reading strategies
they use is."
I have a question; do you actively recruit others in your building to "buy
in", or do you just share as your colleagues express an interest in
knowing more? We have some real hard core types in our building, and I wonder
how to approach them. They DO notice problems with the students' reading
(they can't read the text, answer simple questions about what they have
read, etc.), but they shut down when anyone begins suggesting ways to help
their students attack their reading. The response is, "Well, they should
have learned that in elementary school."
BTW, we are a 6-8 city school working in interdisciplinary teams. All classes
are 80-minute blocks.
Any suggestions along with the already wonderful information you provided
on this topic would be appreciated.
Ellen
--------------------------------------------------------------
Then Ellen prompted the list:
We seem to have hit a lull in the conversation, so I thought I would remind
you of two things:
1. Cris Tovani, author of this amazing book, is now participating in the
conversation. Please feel free to post your questions and musings to her.
What "AHA's!" did you have as you read? What do you need clarification
on? :-)
2. We have now moved on to the second half of the book. Post your thoughts
and questions about this half of the book or continue your conversation
on the first half.
This has been an exciting conversation...let's keep it up!
Happy Friday!
Ellen
--------------------------------------------------------------
Then Ellen responded to her own prompt:
Can you tell it's Friday? ;-)
As I read Chapter 7, "What Do You Wonder?" it struck me how naturally
it fit in with inquiry and the content areas. The science teacher on my
team has really gravitated to inquiry-based learning in her classroom, and
their understanding of the science concepts she's teaching has really taken
off. In the hallways and in other classrooms, students discuss and apply
what they've learned in science to other disciplines; it's exciting.
Another benefit I see to teaching students to look for and ask questions
about they read is I would guess their performance on standardized tests
would rise. If students begin to understand how to answer questions (i.e.,
how to locate the answer be it in the text, another source, or in their
own thought process) through finding answers to questions of their own,
maybe they won't melt down when it comes time for the spring tests.
Does anyone on the list use student-generated questions regularly? What
benefits have resulted? What advice do you have for the rest of us?
Ellen
--------------------------------------------------------------
Marsha replies:
Ellen, Some of your questions struck home.
I struggled this year with the idea that grades were just another extrinsic
reward. For most of the year (and still, occasionally) I preached about
getting A's, about how D's and F's were unacceptable, etc. I started to
wonder about the message I was sending to students, i.e. work for the A's
instead of work for the mastery of content. Next year I am hoping to do
a better job of communicating the importance of mastering material. I think
I can do that by having students reflect more on each assignment--what are
they doing well, what still needs improvement, etc.--as well as giving them
the opportunity to improve any major assignment they are dissatisfied with.
I will agree with you here, too. Homework is my pet peeve. I rarely collect
it for a grade. But I always discuss and dissect the assignment in a small
group discussion. Probing and testing them for understanding. Usually I
try and gather smaller groups of students around my desk for an up close
and personal discussion. I can tell you who gets it and who doesn't. I have
been rewarded with a much more frank discussion of what they understand
and what they don't. We are always talking about how they must learn to
sift and "be smart" about attacking the things they don't know
or are confused about. That's something only they can know. And I think
that fits right into "fake reading". Only they know what's the
truth. Ultimately, some cheat and some never do their homework. But the
majority of kiddos see homework as their chance to practice and to figure
out where they have holes that I, as their teacher, can help fill in.
I have done the latter this year, and it amazes me that, given the option,
students with even C's and B's (and sometimes A's!) want to improve their
work. The D's and F's? They are required to redo those assignments, and
though some gripe about it at first (and some don't!), they are beginning
to understand failure is unacceptable in my room.
This has also been my experience. I have many students who "Redo"
several times before I will accept it as their personal best. Once parents
are onboard with the idea that you're not going to let their child slide
by with less than their best, it's pretty much a great system. I think it
helps me filter out those that need help and those that have been allowed
to be lazy.
A question: what other innovative things have you done to motivate your
students to view themselves as learners?
Portfolios have been huge. My partner has dragged me into them deeply this
year. I've always done portfolios and liked the idea, but lost it in the
dump of things to do. But this year, I've finally watched her use portfolios
consistently every Friday rain or shine. We review the work and look for
trends and patterns. Students share their successes and sometimes even their
failures.It's like in Mosaic, metacognition is the key. For example, students
were writing a review of the last math unit's pretest. We're at the end
of the unit and I wanted them to see if they'd progressed. It's not such
a battle and they are actually interested in re-working the problems to
see if they were correct in the pretest or not. One girl remarked she was
shocked at how she knows how to do the "comparisons" now and that
she thinks the key was figuring out how to read and re-read. Math is a killer
in reading and I've stumbled through helping them to find their personal
"decoder" ring to unlock all the information in problem solving.
The best part of these portfolio sessions is having the kids figure out
what worked and what didn't work. They've grown in understanding what study
skills are their personal best and where they have holes. That helps me,
as their teacher, to help them. And I think they are almost grasping that
cycle idea.
I'm so far from where I'd like to be with them. But I'm getting closer to
that goal. I wonder if you ever really get there?
Marsha
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon posed a question:
Hi. When my students read aloud, they frequently read very slowly or word
to word. Even if the story is very exciting or interesting, the rest of
the class loses interest and goes off task waiting for the reader to finish.
Does anyone else have this problem? When I read the same material with expression,
they are absorbed but when the students read, they fade. Help...
Sharon in Seattle
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mary Anne wondered about students who don't know what questions to ask:
During the course of last year, the high school my daughter attends had
a PTSA meeting on science fair projects. They had a consultant from a local
science museum come to the school to prepare kids and teachers on how to
design a project. But, what he actually did was show the kids how to generate
questions. He was fabulous--he started us out with a simple science experiment
using ring magnets and oatmeal--we ended up with a pile of iron filings.
Then, he asked us to generate a list of questions that the experiment answered.
Then, in the second round what questions did those questions make us think
of!
By the end of the night, the group of about 100 parents and kids had generated
enough questions that the whole state of Florida could have done science
projects!
As a parent, it made so much sense to me that asking kids to generate questions
as they work would be very powerful. I took what I learned back to school
and have found that kids often don't know what questions to ask when they
don't understand.
My after school group is really struggling with this. They are all students
who have failed English/Reading for three quarters and are taking this after
school class so they can earn a credit for English. At some point each of
them have related that they don't understand what to ask--so I have started
letting them ask the questions. I gave each a bookmark and as we read they
are supposed to write down questions they want to ask the author or the
main character. --Last week I got one question!
So, it is back to the drawing board on this one--maybe next week I'll teach
them Bloom!
Mary Anne
--------------------------------------------------------------
Naomi shares some research about reading aloud:
There is a great book called, "Bye, Bye Round Robin". From it
I learned about why teachers should read aloud, modeling good reading. I
also learned why students should not read aloud except:
--One on one to the teacher
-- A brief phrase or sentence to prove a point in a discussion
--After having practiced (including plays, poetry, etc.)
or something like the above.
Naomi, NYC
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mary wonders about the embarrassment of reading aloud:
I teach students whose reading levels are below grade level, 7th and 8th
grades. When I have students read aloud, they are rehearsed readings - readers
theater, poetry, plays, kamishibai. Oral reading is valuable to promote
fluency, but unrehearsed readings are often torturous for the class and
embarassing for the reader, and I don't see any value in them. Do you?
mary
--------------------------------------------------------------
Reading Workshop and Chris's comprehension strategies p; Naomi wonders
where middle schoolers in urban schools fit in:
In Mosaic of Thought we were introduced to the Readers Workshop a time "where
every day children are given extended opportunities to read, have ownership
for the selection of many of their own books,....." (Mosaic, pg. 15)
and the teaching of comprehension strategies within that workshop.
Chris has created a wonderful handbook for comprehension strategies instruction.
It seems that this instruction is done mainly through the reading of shared
texts, with a good part of the reading done at home.
Where do our middle schoolers fit in? In my school (large New York City
public middle school where 99% of our students are entitled to free lunch)
we have several classes engaged in reading workshops that look much like
elementary workshops. (None of our students had readers workshop in elementary
school) The impact of the workshop, the mini-lessons and the conferencing
is amazing. Visualize of group of 8th grade boys engaged in a book club
around Walter Dean Myers' "Scorpians". My eyes water every time
I see them.
Yet there are many teachers who do not utilize the workshop. I can see them
implementing Cris's strategies with their students with shared texts.
From the book I have a picture of a seminar. Cris, is that what your class
looks like? Do you conference individually with students?
Naomi
--------------------------------------------------------------
Chris responds:
Naomi,
At my school, we have 49 minute periods. Hardly enough to run a proper workshop.
In my Reading Workshop class I have been able to get around the short class
times by looking at my entire week. Each week I teach something about reading,
give kids a chance to practice it and respond and then we share. and plan
it using a workshop format. So I may take all of Monday to teach a comprehension
lesson. Then on Tuesday, kids read silently practicing the strategy while
I am doing individual or small group conferences. We may read Wednesday
too or we may go on to sharing. The sharing is usually a discussion or a
sharing of written responses. We then repeat the process. This has helped
me keep my workshop format in a traditional high school day.
In my regular English classes the week is centered around contentand students'
understanding of that content. I weave a comprehension strategy in so the
content is more accessible to my students.
Cris Tovani
--------------------------------------------------------------
Deb wondered about student-generated questions:
Ellen wrote: "Does anyone on the list use student-generated questions
regularly? What benefits have resulted? What advice do you have for the
rest of us?"
Does anyone have particular strategies for teaching kids how to ask good
questions, the questions that they care about? How about resources to help
ourselves ask better questions?
Deb
--------------------------------------------------------------
Deb also responded to Sharon:
Sharon wrote: "Determined to change my ways, one thing I have done
is change my "book chat" oral reports to include a question rubric...."
What other changes are folks trying out in their classes?
Deb
--------------------------------------------------------------
And Deb posed a question for Mary:
Mary wrote: "Now we are reading a novel together (A Long Way From Chicago),
and as they read a chapter, they can do any sort of response that will help
them understand the text. Some are doing double entry journal responses
with a summary and response, the response including connections and questions.
Some are doing mind mapping, mapping out each scene and labelling connecting
threads, and one boy is doing symbolic story representation (from Wilhelm's
You Gotta Be the Book) which involves making cutouts of important characters,
ideas, forces, etc., and then telling the story using the cutouts."
Did you take time to teach all these strategies? Do some strategies work
better for certain kinds of text? What have you found? What do the kids
think about all these tools? Sounds like you've taken a big step! I'd be
anxious to hear more about what you're learning from this approach.
Deb
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mary replied to Deb:
We have spent the year modelling and practicing these responses. while i
would say that the double entry journal could be used with fiction, non-fiction
or poetry, some of Wilhelm's ideas work better with fiction, and the mind
mapping works well with non-fiction. having said that, i find that more
importantly, some kids definitely favor one method over the other, struggling
to perform minimally with one type of response, and sailing through easily
with another type. there is an increasing emphasis on giving kids strategies
to decipher non-fiction texts, so i think if i were to teach the class again,
i would use all of the strategies with a variety of short, non-fiction texts.
We did use mind maps to help them understand an article they were reading
in social studies about the egyptian journey to the land of the dead. they
still needed a lot of help making inferences, and required dialog about
the text before they made the maps. once they made them, the maps helped
them remember the information very well.
mary
--------------------------------------------------------------
Deb was full of questions. She posed another to Cris:
Cris wrote: "In my regular English classes the week is centered around
content and students' understanding of that content. I weave a comprehension
strategy in so the content is more accessible to my students."
I was wondering if you might share a few examples of texts/content that
your students are reading?
Thanks for the great book and for the reality check about 49 minute periods.
Many of us work in schools or systems with the same type of restrictive
schedule, ugh : (
Deb
--------------------------------------------------------------
Susan commented on the question about asking questions:
I don't have any particular strategies for teaching how to ask good questions,
but yesterday I tried the questioning idea with my class reading Nothing
But the Truth. We were reading as a group and I asked the kids to stop us
when they had a question. I modeled a couple myself, and then the kids went
to town with the idea. I was tickled. Today the majority of the kids are
on a band field trip to Chicago, so I will have a very small group. We will
continue the process. I am anxious to see what kinds of questions these
kids have because my more vocal kids won't be here.
Susan
--------------------------------------------------------------
Folks...
We have wrapped up the discussion on adolescent reading and Cris Tovani's
book, "I Read It But I Don't Get It." Thanks so much for some
wonderful conversation. We had nearly 100 messages posted during the two
weeks of chatting -- a definite success!
Thanks to Cris for joining in several times, and a special thanks to Deb
Bambino and Ellen Berg for helping moderate the talk.
John Norton