A Listserv Conversation
with John Lounsbury
On November 16, 2000 the MiddleWeb listserv held its first guest conversation.
John Lounsbury, co-author of a recent NMSA book, "Making Big Schools
Feel Small: Multiage Grouping, Looping, and Schools-Within-a-School,"
joined the list for a two-hour question-and-answer session.
Dr. Lounsbury is Publications Editor for the National Middle School Association
and Dean Emeritus, School of Education, George College & State University,
Milledgeville. A student of junior high school/middle school education for
nearly 50 years, he is regarded as one of the founders of the middle school
movement.
Prior to the conversation, several members of the listserv read Dr. Lounsbury's
book and posted reviews and comments on the list (see
their comments here). What follows is a transcript of our chat with
Dr. Lounsbury.
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John Norton posted the first question -- about serving both the 'hearts
and heads' of middle schoolers:
Welcome Listservers, and welcome John Lounsbury, to our first listserv chat!
Here's the first question:
One of the criticisms we often hear about the "middle school movement"
is repeated in the new book "Turning Points 2000." The authors
say (I'm paraphrasing) that too many middle schools have adopted the trappings
of the middle school model but have failed to pay enough attention to the
academic success of *all* students. How can the ideas you and Paul George
put forth in "Making Big Schools Feel Small" serve both the "hearts
and heads" of middle schoolers?
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John Lounsbury responded:
It's time. Too many if not most middle schools adopted the organizational
aspects of the middle school concept - teams, advisories, exploratory, etc.,
but didn't really change the way instruction was conducted or what was taught.
Therefore, the failure to improve test scores is largely due to the fact
that teachers still teach in the departmentalized, fragmented way via passive
learning that was the cause of the low scores in the first place.
The middle school concept is fundamentally programmatic, not organizational.
The organizational arrangements only provide the opportunity for enriching
the teaching-learning process; they don't ensure that it will be improved.
On the other hand, we should not make any apologies for what the middle
school movement has done to improve the climate of schools. Creating a more
positive atmosphere and improving students' self-concepts were and are necessary
foundations for achieving quality learning.
Given the continued sense of alienation and disengagement among large numbers
of our youth would lead one to believe we still have work to do in the affective
realm. And as Dick Lipka phrased it: "Cognitive learning is hard-won
by someone whose life is in affective disarray."
Perhaps in the 1930s or 40s or 50s we could succeed by "making"
them learn. Not so easy any more, yet so many of the reform efforts are
negatively conceived and rely on extrinsic motivation from threats to bribes.
Middle school learners by nature learn best with their hands-on and their
mouths open. So why do we fight reality? The premise that good middle level
instruction rests on is, I believe, that there is no conflict between academic
effectiveness and developmental responsiveness. In fact, at the middle level
you really can't have one without the other. To treat the academic responsibility
as being in conflict with the other developmental responsibilities is to
establish a fake dichotomy.
In summary, establishing long-term student-teacher relationships will create
the atmosphere and context that will lead to increased achievement.
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Michelle Pedigo asked about research supporting the practice of looping:
John, I totally agree with you -- middle level academic achievement will
only strengthen when academic excellence and developmental responsiveness
are in sync. With this in mind, last year, we did embark to implement looping
in our middle school.
We had seen improvement in test scores on a sustained basis, and we were
continually looking for ways to improve our school. We had teaming in place,
interdisciplinary instruction, and now we wanted to try looping. We began
by including parents, community members, students, and teachers on the ground
floor of the discussion. However, because there is a limited amount of data
that supports academic achievement because of looping, it was a hard sell.
We did make it happen, and I believe it is making our student-teacher relationship
more viable at Barren County Middle School. However, when do you think there
will be some hard data that supports looping? We need that in an era of
standards and accountability; and if it's not coming soon, how do you suggest
promoting this "radical" way of learning for students to all stakeholders?
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John Lounsbury replied:
You've asked a tough question, for which there is no easy answer. But when
someone asks for hard evidence to show the academic success of looping or
any other middle school advocacy, you should ask "what evidence is
there that what has been in place is successful?" The fact of the matter
is that continued use of passive learning and fragmented instruction about
topics that students had no part in selecting is why test scores have gone
down.
Middle schools have not brought scores up as much as we would like, but
they certainly have not harmed scores, and they have achieved improvements
in other aspects of a student's education. I'm hoping that in your school
you will begin to gather in an organized fashion the data that the public
wants. All the data in favor of looping and multiage grouping may be limited
but it is not nonexistent, as is true with research supporting traditional
practices.
I think the first thing that needs to be done is to inform better parents
and citizens generally about the nature of young adolescents, because it
is that knowledge that justifies the newer middle school practices and regrettably,
is almost unknown to most parents and citizens. When parents understand
why these kids act as they do and how critical are the educational experiences
they undergo during this transition time, they will support middle school
practices, all of which are based on the reality of human growth and development
and the best information we have on how learning best takes place.
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Linda Haskell asked John Lounsbury about student advisories:
John,
Currently, we use school-within-a-school and looping together. We have dropped
advisory (which I am sorry about) because many teachers felt it was an "extra"
that took away from academic time, caused extra work on the teachers' part,
and was a "forced" connection that didn't really work for kids.
How do schools overcome these perceptions?
Linda
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John Lounsbury had this reply:
The advisory component has been the most difficult one to implement because
it calls for a different role. In schools that are essentially subject-centered,
advisory is important to give students a time and a place when their non-academic
needs can be met as well as providing support for their academic needs.
However, in my judgment, 20 years from now no middle school of note will
have an advisory program because such will become unnecessary when long-term
student-teacher relationships are in force and when curriculum integration
has been achieved.
In this way students' affective needs will be melded into their congnitive
needs. Perhaps I am a bit optimistic, but as we are freed from the prescribed-in-advance
course of study and can involve the kids themselves in setting both the
topics to be studied and the ways they are to be studied, all of their developmental
needs can be a part of the problem-centered block of time conducted by a
small team.
For instance, if their study is focusing on a topic like "change and
conflict," conflict within families can be studied as well as conflict
between nations that led to wars. This may seem radical to many, but it
is only what was proven to be quite successful during the 30s and 40s in
those schools that participated in the Eight Year Study, and other schools
that implemented the core curriculum.
The Eight Year Study, incidentally, proved rather conclusively that students
in the experimental schools who did not pursue separate courses and Carnegie
units were as or more successful in college in both their academic advancement
and their service participation and citizenship. It is a shame that too
few have ever heard of this major experimental curriculum study. It was,
however, recently, re-introduced through a NMSA publication entitled The
Eight Year Study Revisited. Anybody seriously interested in the concept
of curriculum integration ought to read that small book.
I think we should recognize that advisory is instructional. It instructs
in behavior as well as supports the academic program. It is often viewed,
as in my earlier answer, as if classes and advisory are in conflict, when
in fact if properly done they are very much in concert. So long as we view
the teacher's job narrowly as an instructor whose almost exclusive responsibility
is covering content and checking on the students' temporary acquisition
of that content, we will have a problem. The needed re-definition of the
teacher's role will solve it, but it is difficult to counter a deep-seated,
traditional concept of what teaching is.
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Deb Bambino asked John Lounsbury about ways to improve the image of
young adolescents:
Hi John,
I hear you calling on teachers to be both advocates and action researchers
and I couldn't agree more. We are in the best position to spread the word
about the need and the benefits of these reforms.
Students, parents and teachers issuing joint statements of support coupled
with examples of dynamic, authentic projects, like those outlined in your
book, speak volumes.
As a teacher, I was continually dismayed by the media's one sided attention
for the negative behaviors of some young adults. We rarely got coverage
for their successes. My frustration along with my introduction to online
concversation sold me on the idea of making our teaching public.
What suggestions do you have to help us spread the word even further?
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John replied to Deb this way:
I go back to a conviction that I've had for a long time which was actually
incorporated in one of my answers earlier this evening. The public's lack
of understanding about the nature of young adolescents and the importance
of this age level which in many respects sets the parameters for one's adult
life is the single greatest barrier to implementing the middle school concept.
All of us need to capitalize on every opportunity to share with parents
and citizens information about this age level. They are still, as Joan Lipsitz
titled her book in the early 80s, Growing Up Forgotten. One of the
best ways to do this is to get parents of young adolescents into the school
where they can watch and observe the reality of middle level education in
action. Rarely will a parent come away without a new appreciation of and
indeed some awe of what middle level teachers do and how well they do it.
We are handicapped by the limited definition of an education that parents
have. They assume the acquisition of information is the bulk of the job,
when, in fact, while it is important, in many respects it has the least
enduring importance of the other objectives.
There is now available much good literature that helps parents understand
this age level and how to deal with young adolescents. Two books by Charlene
Giannetti and Margaret Sagarese, The Roller Coaster Years: Raising Your
Child Through the Maddening Yet Magical Middle School Years, and Parenting
911: How to Safeguard and Rescue Your 10-15 Year Old from Substance Abuse,
Depression, Sexual Encounters, Violence, Failure in School, Danger on the
Internet, and Other Risky Situations are authoritative, very readable
publications. They and several other books for parents are available from
NMSA.
Every middle school ought to have a parent shelf from which parents can
check out such books. In addition, schools should take advantage of one
of the several newsletter subscriptions that provide copy for newsletters.
In addition, local newspapers should be exploited. Have a reporter shadow
a seventh grader and write up the day along with post-day interview comments.
Get a small group of students to make presentations at the various civic
club luncheons. Again, it all comes down to helping people realize the unique
nature of these kids who are not children but are not yet mature adolescents
and why they deserve an educational program that is distinctive and matches
their nature and needs.
I'm tempted here to go off on a soapbox regarding the importance of exploratory
experiences, but I'd best not other than to say it is dead wrong to cut
exploratory enrichment experiences to provide longer amounts of time for
the same old passive learning instruction in the content areas.
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Naomi Smith asked John Lounsbury this question about grouping:
I am at a large (almost 1700) middle school in New York City that is divided
into 4 academies and that works. Teachers can loop if they want to (and
they often do) but it is never mandated. We have not had any multi-age grouping.
My question is in regard to heterogeneous grouping. In the academy I direct,
we have always had heterogeneous grouping, and I feel it works well.
In the other academies they have started "honor classes" for students
with top scores on standardized tests. This, of course, leaves the other
classes on the grade with a greater percentage of struggling learners. What
can you say about the heterogeneous vs. homogenous grouping of students
in the middle school?
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And John Lounsbury replied:
As you might suspect, Naomi, I stand four-square in support of heterogeneous
grouping. I believe research also supports it. It is true that logic would
seem to justify dividing kids up by presumed ability, but it simply hasn't
worked.
I do not believe there is any evidence that superior students are held back
when in a heterogeneous class problem-solving and student-centered learning
is enforced. In such situations, different students pursue different activities
but in support of the same goals; and the more able students can go far
beyond what others can do and fulfill an important responsibility as a fortunate
individual who ought to use his or her ability for the common good rather
than exclusively to separate himeself or herself from the masses.
Inevitably, in a school that practices homogeneous grouping, the school
teaches one lesson that it does not intend to teach but inevitably does
teach; and that lesson is that some kids are worth more than others. At
the middle school level especially, when kids are trying to determine their
aptitudes, their aspirations, and their self-concepts, it is unfortunate
that ability grouping works against helping individuals to see themselves
positively.
While it is certainly not the intention of schools to support some pupils'
maintaining their already low self-concepts, in (fact) ability grouping
does that. There is great social and presumed economic status to being in
the gifted and talented group, and the parents of such children are the
more influential and vocal individuals able to influence school policy.
Therefore, ability grouping remains in force to serve one group but does
so at the expense of others.
Again, my earlier comments about the critical importance of students' attitudes
and values at this time come into play. But so long as separate subject
instruction and standardized test scores are the order of the day, some
ability grouping is inevitable. And here again I'm resisting getting on
my soapbox about the evils of grading. But I'll stop.
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A little later, Susan Hurstcalderone asked a follow-up question about
grouping in math:
John, The biggest block to heterogeneous grouping has been parents and math
teachers (my apology to any math teachers in the group....I am simply reflecting
on my experience). How do you address heterogeneous groups in math? Many
parents will support heterogeneous groupins in all of the other disciplines,
but math is one in which they really balk. How do you respond to this situation?
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John Lounsbury had this reply for Susan:
I have to acknowledge that if there is one subject that may be well served
by ability grouping it is math. And in many cases it is probably wise to
accept some grouping in math in order to gain the more important victory
of heterogeneous grouping elsewhere. The same is often true in the area
of interscholastic athletics. To win the math battle or the interscholastic
athletics battle you may lose more than you gain.
I am reminded of Jonothan Kozol's admonition that says to choose battles
big enough to matter but small enough to win. Although I can't provide the
exact citation, I once saw a research study that showed self-contained seventh
grade teachers did a better job of teaching math than departmentalized math
teachers.Though seemingly against logic I believe the reason was that self-contained
teachers simply knew their kids better.
I don't think we have yet come to recognize the losses that ensued when
we went to departmentalization on the assumption that subject matter specialists
would serve students better. Student-teacher relationships deteriorated,
discipline problems increased, and class activities were focused on covering
content. We may have meant well, and from a teacher's standpoint it was
easier, but there is no evidence to show that students' education improved.
As you can tell, I do not really have a good answer for this question, but
I do know lots of successful middle level teachers whose students learn
math extremely well in integrated, non-departmentalized situations.
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Beverly Maddox asked about communicating the values of the middle
school concept:
Guidelines for implementation in the final section of your book seem to
hit on most of the questions, worries, and nay-saying that might come up
in a discussion with teachers here at my school. I'm quite taken with your
urging us to take a pro-active stance, too -- why indeed should we apologize
for the improvement to school climate that has resulted from our transition
from junior high to middle school-this IS a pleasanter, healthier place
for kids and teachers. And I'm no longer going to argue over "nurturing"
vs. "academic achievement." What a red herring that's proved to
be!
Informing parents of the developmental needs of emerging adolescents is
critical-in my school, many of my eighth graders' parents are barely twice
their ages!
Understanding the nature of 13 year olds might help them become hearty advocates
of middle school! What do you recommend as forums for doing this? Naturally,
a little one-on-one can take place in team conferences, etc., but how can
we reach the masses in a credible way? I'm giving my colleagues the benefit
of the doubt that we are savvy about development and growth of adolescents
and the educational implications......
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John Lounsbury replied:
Beverly,
I answered inadequately but as best I could at the moment in one of the
previous answers to another question. It should be coming to you at some
point in my reply to Deb Bambino.
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Anne Jolly posted comments and several questions for John Lounsbury.
He posted his replies in a single e-mail. Here are the comments, questions
and responses:
During my 17 years as a middle school teacher, I dealt continually with
the issue of student-teacher relationships. I longed to establish strong,
positive relationships with the students I taught. I loved those changeable
eighth graders and their quirky ways. Yet each day they ran by me in groups
of 30 or more for a short 50 minutes. Since I normally taught six periods
out of the day, some years I taught (?) over 190 students per day. Not a
great way to build relationships. Not a great way to help students grow
and learn and become productive. Certainly not a great way to help them
develop good personal qualities and decision-making skills.
Maybe that's why my first reaction, upon reading Dr. Lounsbury's book, is
to snatch up hundreds of these books and pass them out to every person I
see! It occurs to me that if we are going to make a change of this magnitude
in middle schools across the nation, we're going to have to educate every
single stakeholder on the needs of these students for ongoing, quality teacher-student
interaction and the variety of innovative approaches that we can take to
address these needs. This book certainly hit the nail on the head, and illustrates
that if a critical mass of people in a middle school want to implement a
school structure that can make a real difference for >teachers and students,
there are some definite possibilities!
Questions:
1. Considering the number of middle schools around the nation - do you have
any idea what percentage of these are systematically implementing models
designed to address the need for strong teacher-student bonding and a small
school atmosphere?
Answer: I have no real idea but a good hunch that the extent of looping
has grown significantly in the last five years and multiage grouping had
a somewhat slower rate. Schools-within-a-school have been operational for
a long time in many places but many schools are moving in that direction.
All of these arrangements, however, are clearly minority practices at present.
I personally believe that the statistics regarding youth violence, etc.
and the growing size of schools will lead to significant growth in the schools-within-a-school
model which is easier to achieve than multiage grouping or looping. I am
hoping, of course, that this book will be of some use in moving that trend
along.
2. Is there a national "push" for middle school models similar
to the ones described? It's going to take some powerful pushing to overcome
the status quo, and someone - some organization - needs to spearhead that.
On the same line - is the amount of systematic, rigorous research on this
middle school issue being ratcheted up?
Answer: There is no national push as such, but more of a grassroots
movement in scattered communities. Jim Grant could well be classified as
a national figure pushing to implement these practices. Question 3 asks
about colleges of education.
3. Do you know if colleges of education have generally bought into this
idea? Do they generally focus on preparing middle school teacher candidates
to teach in schools such as the ones you described?
Answer: The answer here is as diverse as institutions themselves,
unfortunately, teacher ed programs have seldom been in the lead, though
progress is being made there.
4. Is anyone looking at the big picture and developing a plan for how to
make this happen across the nation? Is quality professional development
available for schools that want to implement new models? What sorts of support
systems are available for the innovators?
Answer: About the big picture and a plan for making this happen --
Nothing like this presently exists, although I hope the National Middle
School Association will be able to provide resources and leadership through
its various services. Perhaps it is time to establish an informal alliance
of schools committed to long-term student-teacher relationships which might
become a listserve if some group could coordinate such.
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A question was asked about a model middle school developed by Lounsbury
and others in Georgia:
I'm intrigued by the new "model" middle school you've started
in your hometown of Milledgeville, GA. I visited the Oak Hill Middle School
website and
was fascinated by the four schools under the Oak Hill umbrella -- and the
fact that you imported a principal from New Zealand!
How does Oak Hill demonstrate some of the ideas set forth in your book?
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John Lounsbury replied:
I am delighted of course to take a few minutes and tell you about the Oak
Hill Middle School, opened August 9 after a 3-year study by a local task
force and involvement of the architect in planning the facility.
Two older existing middle schools on two sides of town were beyond repair
and renovation. The School Board, of necessity, felt it had to build one
large school to replace them, and they had a large and attractive piece
of land for it. When some of us objected to the mammoth size and suggested
the school-within-a-school concept, the Board bought into it. The Board
and the Supt readily endorsed the plan.
The two existing faculties met together during their common planning time
regularly year before last and then last year, July 1, 1999, we employed
Marion Payne as the Director. This, more than a year before the school opened.
This was a critical step, as she had time to secure principals, meet with
the two staffs, help in finalizing building furnishings, etc. The student
body of 1400 is divided into four schools of 375 each. Each school has its
own principal, its own counselor, and its own academic faculty of about
22-24.
Students spend 70% of their day in their individual school which is essentially
a rectangle that includes special ed and gifted. Each school is a microcosm
of the larger student body in terms of faculty and students. Every faculty
member has an advisory group that meets 25 minutes every morning. Exploratory
experiences bring students from one grade level out of the four houses together,
as does lunch. Marion Payne, the immediate Past-Pres of NMSA is the school's
director, but we made a point to identify the administrator in each school
as The Principal, not an Assistant Principal.
The building is attractive and offers specialized facilities such as two
tech labs, a theatre that seats 450, music, art, horticulture, and other
rooms that serve all students. This is one way to take advantage of bigness
yet ensuring smallness by the four-school arrangement. Each of the schools
is identified with one of the four regions of Georgia, which gives it a
distinctiveness though one that is not competitive. We have not as yet been
able to exploit the unbelievable potential that grows out of the regional
setup and the extensive grounds surrounding the building, but we're off
to a good start.
Many parents are actively involved and we hope that many more will become
so. At this point our greatest problem is getting a higher degree of parent
participation, not viewing parents as a problem. The student body is 64%
African American and about 60% of the student body are on free and reduced
lunch. The student body includes many children of college professors and
other professionals in the community. Teams at the sixth grade level are
two-person, whereas in the 7th or 8th grade they are more likely to be 3
or sometimes 4. Every school has a large computer lab and excellent science
facilities.
Marion and the four principals comprise and operate as a leadership team.
The principals are very much individuals, but they work well together. Naturally
everyone likes the accent of the one from New Zealand. Marion had met him
at a conference. That's how that came about. Neither of the two previous
middle school principals are employed in the system any more. Fresh leadership,
especially outside leadership was mandatory to carry off this rather massive
change. Teams were completely built from scratch again. And every effort
was made to establish a new program rather than bring into the new building
a previous program.
The school is also the professional development school for Georgia College
& State University, and with the assistance of the middle grades cohort
students (preservice teachers) and the college faculty we hope to be able
to demonstrate and gather data that will show our efforts to ensure smallness
within bigness will pay off both in improved test scores and in more positive
personal development and citizenship.
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John Norton closed the two-hour session:
Thanks so much to John Lounsbury, and his colleague who did all the typing
for him. John told me he was a "hunt and peck" typist, but they
did a marvelous job pushing out thoughtful answers to some equally thoughtful
questions.
If you have other questions for John, please send them to me at my private
address and I'll forward them to him. He can answer them as he has time,
and we'll post the results on the listserve.
Thanks again, John. Great thoughts, which we'll archive for the world to
read.
Making Big Schools Feel Small:
Multiage Grouping, Looping, and Schools-Within-a-School
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