Classroom Instruction That Works book chat

BOOK DISCUSSION

Classroom Instruction That Works
by Robert J. Marzano, et. al.

RUNNING RECORD OF OUR CHAT

This is the quick and dirty version. We'll clean this all up after we're done and post an easy-to-read version in our MiddleWeb Listserv Archive.

This discussion has ended. Please browse the conversation we had!

John kicked the chat off:

Hi, folks. Thanks for joining the discussion about "Classroom Instruction That Works" by Robert J. Marzano, Debra J. Pickering, and Jane E. Pollock

The phenomenal team of Marsha Ratzel and Ann Barysh will help moderate this chat. They've been swapping e-mail and ideas for several weeks, trying to zero in on the best ways to make this a rich discussion.

Here's our background page for the discussion:

http://www.middleweb.com/MWLresources/marzchat.html

I've added one resource to this page this afternoon. It's a study guide for the book, developed by ASCD.

http://www.ascd.org/readingroom/studyguides/marzano.html

Welcome messages will follow from Marsha and Ann. Then I'll post the first question. Ann and Marsha will take it from there - with your help and involvement.

We'll go for as long as everyone is willing and engaged!

John

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Co-moderator Marsha Ratzel added her welcome:

I'm delighted that we're going to be tackling this book together. I think
it has helped me to sit back and take a look at what I believe about
classroom instruction. It helped me realize that I can become a better
classroom practitioner if I spend time thinking about what the research
says about instructional strategies. In some cases what I thought, agreed
with the conclusions reached by the author. In other cases, my personal
experience disagreed with what the book advocates. But regardless, it
made me think. Nothing in here was new in terms of an instructional
strategy---in fact, I thought it would be a pretty dull book since I'd
heard about all this before and even been sent to training on some of
these strategies....it was the thinking and data-driven decision making
that was new.

I guess that thinking process is what's most important. It's also what I
would encourage you to do as you go through the book. I know my book
looks like a small war was waged inside the covers and all over the pages.
I drew big black circles and inserted exclamation points around the things
that I was able to validate in my teaching toolbox. There are lots of
question marks with notes to ask someone what they thought. And in some
cases, I didn't even get what the book was talking about until someone
else started talking to me about their question marks. So maybe someone
else's question marks will even help you clarify/expand/revise your
thinking.

I also have to let you in on a secret. So far, the best of this chat has
been getting to know Ann. She's challenged me to consider new
perspectives. ( Again back to that making me think thing.) I think you'll
find this to be true, too.

So welcome and I can hardly wait to get started.

marsha

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Ann added her welcome:

"With a gulp our heroine of cyber-professional development walked to the end of her computer, waved to her fans in the grandstand and jumped into the deep end with the following statement...."

In thinking about this book and how to start our discussion, I am struck by the fact that it is often both hard and easy to have discussions about instructional practice. On the one hand, many of us have shared similar problems so we can easily understand and be empathic about what works and what doesn't. However, it is rare that we have the opportunity to be scientific (read: analytical) about our practice.

This book is deceptively complex in its approach to classroom practice. In fewer than 250 pages, Robert Marzano offers to us 9 effective strategies that work and then succinctly yet deliberately "unfolds" these practices for us. There is enough of the academic information to keep our intellectuals engaged and a good deal of practical "how-TOS" to help those who are eager for practical applications and "fer-instances" still logged on. This is no small feat that Marzano does very well.

I agree with Marsha, my copy is covered with sticky notes and comments back to the authors. A phrase or an example always elicits a comment from me as well as a desire to start a conversation with someone.

I for one think it is the perfect book for discussing and framing the ongoing teacher question:

"In my class today, I tried..... and this is what happened...."

I would judge our discussion a success if we all left with a few new skills under our collective belts but also with a conviction that it is not only important to be reflective about our practice but such a state of mind can provide us with a kind of personal energy when the going gets rough.

Hope to see you here, learning and sharing!

Ann Barysh

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From: Anne Jolly <ajollygal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Ann Barysh welcomes you to the chat!

Well said, Ann! I really think that this is one book
talk that's going to make me think more deeply about
instruction and ways of looking at the effectiveness
of instruction.

Just wondering - is anyone from MCREL "lurking" or
joining in on this booktalk? I know that Ceri Dean
and others helped to co-author some of Marzano's work,
although I don't know about this book.

Anne

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From: "Deborah Bambino" <dbambino@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Ann Barysh welcomes you to the chat!

Thanks for jumping in Ann! I agree with your assessment of the book and I'm hoping to "swim" into the deeper data driven waters with the assistance of colleagues in this chat. ( All puns purposeful : )

Debbie

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John posted the first question:

I've agreed to post the first discussion question, while Marsha and Ann rush about and complete busy-educator obligations.

They'll definitely need to take it from here!

John

===============

Please respond to...

QUESTION #1:

What do you hope to learn from our discussion of CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION THAT WORKS?

SOME CONTEXT:

Here's a very quick read showing the nine essential instructional strategies i.d.'ed by Marzano:

http://www.middleweb.com/MWLresources/marzchat1.html

and...

Here's an excerpt from an on-line article I posted on our resource page.

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The world seems to divide good teachers into two categories. Some people see teaching as an art, where a teacher with innate talent develops her gift as if by some genetic predisposition. Other people place emphasis on knowledge of content, where any teacher can teach-as long as he knows his subject area. These biases seem to leave little room for teachers to look closely at how they teach in the classroom.

"Discussions about research on instructional practices are not sought after and not well received," says Robert Marzano, coauthor of the ASCD book Classroom Instruction That Works: Research-Based Strategies for Increasing Student Achievement.

But the definition of content standards and the public pressures of the accountability movement are encouraging more districts and teachers to take a closer look at research-based instructional practices that improve student motivation and achievement, say researchers.

Oddly enough, some of these teaching strategies don't seem particularly new-identifying similarities and differences, note taking, and homework and practice, for example. The cumulative knowledge of more than 30 years of research, however, is what "validates their usefulness," insists Marzano.

Marzano believes that even though research-based instructional strategies are not yet widely used, the scientific evidence about their effectiveness will mount so that more teachers will see their value.

In the current age of measuring achievement, some district administrators are taking notice of practices proven to show percentile gains of 26-37 points in research studies. For example, students tend to flourish when a classroom atmosphere reinforces effort or a teacher encourages them to analyze their thinking and self-motivation.

Perhaps researchers' long-standing claims that even one teacher armed with effective strategies-even in a mediocre school environment-can make a profound difference in a student's learning will end up becoming the one piece of research that ushers in a new era of teaching.

http://www.ascd.org/readingroom/cupdate/2002/02winter_allen.html

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From: "Deborah Bambino" <dbambino@earthlink.net>
Subject: [MWbooklist] Sculpting a lesson based on the data...why these nine skills?

I must confess that while I was tempted to rush past the data so I could
just dive into the strategies, I was humbled by our moderators' comments
about the need to take a more conscious approach to our instruction. Funny,
I thought I was taking a pretty reflective approach before, but now I'm
thinking that I was trying lots of things/techniques and hoping to find
something that worked for everyone, or almost everyone, without thinking
enough about why it did or didn't stick.

I hope in the course of this conversation that I'll ground my understanding
about what makes different strategies the most effective ones. I'm a big
proponent of metacognition and I enjoy teaching metacognitive skills to
kids. I hope to unpeel a whole new layer of thinking in this chat.

Thanks for getting us started!

Debbie

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From: ATheins77@aol.com
Subject: [MWbooklist] What I want to learn from the Marzano chat

Whew! It's that busy time of year, but this really has me interested. I've
had the chance to take a look at the nine effective practices just briefly,
and the part that struck me was that some of the Essential Nine weren't the
"how", but the "what" of instruction -- particularly, identifying similarities
and differences, summarizing and note-taking, and generating and testing
hypotheses. There has to be explicit instruction in how to do these things,
but the rest are the how -- cooperative learning, setting objectives and
providing feedback.

What I would like to learn is: 1) How do we become research and data-driven
teachers that can prove what we do is working? (A pretty outrageous thought
in the nebulous world of teaching) and 2) How do we use the Essential Nine
effectively?

As far as the book talk goes, I wonder what everyone else thinks about taking
a very linear approach to this. I would like to talk about each of the nine
sequentially and discuss specific ways to use the essential nine in the best
way possible. Otherwise, the task seems overwhelming to me in April of a
school year! :) Marsha, Ann, anyone else out there?

Amy in Colorado

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From: "Rick Wormeli" <rwormeli@erols.com>
Subject: RE: [MWbooklist] What I want to learn from the Marzano chat

Hi Amy -- I'm not really sure that this is the goal of the book. They
didn't want to set the record straight on the "how" of instruction, just
the "what," and the "why." Each of us has different situations with
different populations each year of our practice. Outlining step by step
what to do wouldn't enable all of us to see the usefulness of the nine
effective practices in our own classrooms. We'd find steps that wouldn't
work. The listserve is a great place to share suggestions, of course. Is
there one of the practices that is particularly provocative?

Another thought: One of the attributes of a highly accomplished teacher is
the ability to show how a teacher's actions directly effect student
learning. Learning how to self-analyze, obtain objective data, interpret
it, and take action as a result is a major component of being a
professional. This is all to say that I like your first suggested question.
There are probably many folks on the listserve who've done action research
that would have a lot to offer the discussion. I hope they contribute. --

Rick

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Amy,

I found myself fascinated by the thought that I could use data from this
book to help me "prove" what I was doing was an effective practice.
Somehow it helped me to feel more confident using the things that I thought
I knew were working but didn't know the research behind the method. I feel
like it's a whole new world that opened up and it made me want to read as
much as I could about becoming a data-driven teacher.

Yet, at the same time I'm reading through The Courage to Teach. My sixth or seventh re-read
because it seems to touch the heart of my teaching practice. It offers
another view of teaching...how accomplished teachers weave together the
students, content and their own passions. I feel like a split personality
because I think both books have points that agree with my experience. (I
guess that's what happens when you read two books at once!!!!!)

But I emphatically believe that knowing what the research has to say and
considering that as I weave together my students and the content is
critical. I also think your question about using the Essential Nine is a
terrific one. You can't use them all at once!!!

Is there a staging method that makes sense....do any of them build on one another
....those types of questions would be terrific to consider as we move through the book.
That sort of fits in with the last set of chapters. And, even though you can
probably every strategy works in all areas, which content areas are most
impacted with which strategies?

The thought that we'd take a look at the nine in order made sense to us when
we were planning. It also made sense to linger at the strategies that have
the most potential for positive impact...?????? Thanks for sharing your
ideas.

marsha

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From: "Lynda Belt" <LBelt@puyallup.k12.wa.us>
Subject: [MWbooklist] Expectations

My job is to lead four junior high staffs through "the essential nine" as a way of looking at how we can improve student learning and test scores. I just want to learn as much as I can from others' perspectives before I work with these staffs. I look forward to delving into a deeper understanding about each of the nine, both the hows and whys. I am looking for jewels, for ideas that will help these staffs explore and adopt these strategies as their own, help them to implement over the next several years, to evaluate and reevaluate what they are doing. This will be wonderful.

Lynda

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From: "RATZEL, MARSHA" <MRATZEL@bv229.k12.ks.us>
Subject: RE: [MWbooklist] Expectations

Lynda,

There is a wonderful companion book for people in your position. It is
called a Handbook for Classroom Instruction that Works and takes you through
all of the nine strategies---very methodically. Each strategy has specific
steps for both younger and older students, blackline masters to use, and
reflective exercises. It won't replace the book that we're reading, but it
will give you some additional tools to use in leading a face-to-face group
in considering the 9.

The ISBN: Stock Number: 0-87120-522-X and it costs about $31 if you're a non-ASCD
member and $27 if you are a member + S&H. I could envision using some of
the exercises in my portfolio as evidence of my ability to reflect on my
practice.

marsha

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Lynda replied:

Thanks I've got it. I've got both and all the literature written about it. I'm just excited to hear the discussion to broaden my perspectives.

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From: Lahaskell@aol.com
Subject: [MWbooklist] first question

I'm hoping to see how each of these practices can be improved upon in my
classroom. For example, I've attempted to establish a homework policy and
tell students the reason for the assignment. I also attempt to return all
homework either the next day or within three days (for long essays, etc.).
However, right before vacation, up to a fourth of each class wasn't doing
homework at all! This was true for all the teachers on my team. I'm hoping to
learn what has gone wrong here. I have much smaller concerns about my
implementation of the other essential nine.

Linda

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From: Anne Jolly <ajollygal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] FIRST QUESTION - IT'S EASY!

My first thoughts upon previewing Marzano's nine
essential instructional strategies was that all of
them (with the possible exception of homework)
involves strategies that actively engage students in
cognitively challenging experiences. My initial ideas
for what I'd like to learn include:

(1) How do you make homework cognitively challenging
and - since kids seem to prefer rote, automatic,
mindless work because it's easier and more familiar -
how do you get them to do the more cognitively
challenging homework?

(2) Why did these strategies outstrip other
instructional strategies? I've used many of them,
along with a number of other strategies, and I was not
aware that they were more effective than some other
strategies I used.

Anne

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From: YAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] [MWbooklist DIGEST] Question #1

I'm really interested in how others may have used or plan to use this book to
help teachers improve their classroom instruction. I'm looking for ways to
infuse it into already existing professional development.

Juli

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Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] [MWbooklist DIGEST] Question #1
From: "Chris Toy" <Chris_Toy@coconetme.org>

>What do you hope to learn from our discussion of CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION THAT WORKS?

I am hoping to get a good understanding of how to recognize classroom
instruction that is working so I can reinforce effective practices and
provide constructive feedback to help teachers improve instruction.

Chris Toy
Principal
Freeport Middle School

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Co-moderator Ann Barysh wrote:

Hello All:

I am glad to see that so many folks are having a good time paddling around these cyper waters, swimming out beyond the diving platform, doing surface dives and discovering what wonderful things lie below the surface.

(I wonder if I am getting ready for summer and my favorite spot in Maine?)

Before we talk about specific effective strategies, I would like us to consider a warning that Marzano et al make at the very beginning of the book which is:

Are some instructional strategies more effective in certain subject areas?
Are some instructional strategies more effective at certain grade levels?
Are some instrcutional strategies more effective with students from certain backgrounds?
Are some instructional strategies more effective with students of different apitude?

I guess my overall question to the group tonight is to think of an experience when an instructional strategy that you thought was going to be great in reality, bombed. Now in retrospect, do you have a sense why the lesson "went belly up"?

Did Marzano's cautionary questions help you in any way to understand what happened? How?

Ann

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From: "RATZEL, MARSHA" <MRATZEL@bv229.k12.ks.us>
Subject: RE: [MWbooklist] first question

I think Ann's question causes me to remember times when I forgot my cardinal operating principle....all things should revolve and point to the place where I want my students to end up at the end of the activity. I either neglected to really flesh out in my mind what evidence I would be collecting at the end point or I failed to match the instructional strategy to the type of learning I wanted to accomplish.

The process of understanding how to match what I wanted at the end to the instructional strategy took quite a bit of practice before I felt like I could do it without investing a ton of intentional thought. By that I mean, it took a long time and lots of conversations with other more experienced teachers for me to learn how to just initutively "know" what to do. I didn't ever learn that from someone, I never read anything that would have prepared me to consider the options and I assumed I would somehow just "know".

I guess it just took repetition of being in similar circumstances for me to amass enough experience that I could link all this together. And then every year when you change students and have to re-calibrate to meet their unique needs.

But I can say that I learned more from the failures and disaster lessons, than I typically did from the great lessons!!!! This was especially true when a dear colleague told me to involve the kids in debriefing the disasters. She gently showed me how to question the kids to see why they didn't understand what I was trying to do. I didn't have a clue that I could probe them for help in answering my own questions. Isn't it amazing.....that's how I finally figured out how to improve myself. The kids!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, well enough my rattling on and on.

I'm anxious to hear what everyone else has to say.

marsha

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From: "RATZEL, MARSHA" <MRATZEL@bv229.k12.ks.us>
Subject: [MWbooklist] Identifying Similarities and Differences

When I first read through this chapter I thought, "I do these things all the
time. There's no new information here." But I what I didn't know was the
data that supported my efforts in using things like classifying (remember
I'm an old science teacher and this is our bread and butter!!!!!!)and
creating metaphors. In science especially, metaphors are critical to
helping students understand something new based on generalizing something
they already know. It's tough to understand how the heart works at first
for seventh graders. But when you use the metaphor of a pump and then
demonstrate the pump in front of their eyes, they suddenly "get it".
Similarly I've used rope within a student circle to represent an electrical
circuit -- gloving the student that represented the resistor in the circuit,
for example.

What I didn't understand was the data-proven power of teaching in this way.
Looking at Figure 2.1, I was astonished to see what a huge gain that
students who can identify similarities and differences experience (looks
like somewhere between 31-46 percentile points).

Then I read through the section on metaphors (p 23-26) and began to think
about I could have expanded what I had done in the classroom to include
Student-Directed models. I had provided plenty of Teacher-Directed models,
but had never considered letting my kids make them up to show understanding.
The graphic organizer on p26 just made sense and I could see using it to
create a process for students. I'll bet the kids would really get how to do
it if I gave them practice with something like the Marzano example of Making
a Sandwich.

I will also have to admit that, although I really did lots of classifying
and allowed students to develop their own criteria, I hadn't thought of
stacking Venn Diagrams. This made my thinking come alive with possibilities.

As I considered analogies, I need to admit that I didn't do much of this. I
never felt competent enough to do a good job of it, frankly speaking. I
didn't want to mess the kids up. But I would have to reconsider my
reluctance given the thought that I could use the Graphic Organizer frame
presented on Figure 2.8 p 28. That makes sense to me. I still am
struggling with how would my non-English speaking students do with these
since analogies are very language dependent. I suppose I could retool this
organizer somehow in rebus form. But after reading this chapter, I would at
least try some and see if I could pull it off.

What was your reaction to this chapter? Which one of the four methods of
identifying similarities and differences (comparing, classifying, metaphors,
analogies) have worked best for you? for your content area? I'm anxious to
hear what people are thinking.

marsha

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From: Lahaskell@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Second topic

Hi,

A recent idea bombed in class. During our study of W.W.II, I planned to
read aloud 3-4 picture books dealing with different aspects of the war. They
were "Terrible Things", "Hiroshima No Peeka", "Rose Blanc" and one about a
family visiting a Japanese internment camp years later (I can't remember the
title now). I would read them and then the students would discuss them and
answer questions about them in groups or pairs. The books were spaced about a
week apart. I thought this would be enjoyable for the kids. They did
understand the themes and ideas I wanted them to get, but they never smiled
or seemed to enjoy the activity. Did I control it too much? I'm unsure why
this wasn't anything they seemed to enjoy like they did reading aloud the
play Anne Frank.

Linda

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From: Baraswang@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Second topic

Interesting question. My first response is the obvious which is "What do you
mean by 'enjoy'? When I was a teacher I taught a course on the Holocaust that
in a lot of ways was terrible. Yet, my students 'enjoyed it" a great deal
because the topic was compelling.

Are you really saying that they didn't appear engaged or moved and just went
through the motions? And, how do you know that the lesson bombed? That is an
interesting question. Ask yourself :What made Anne Frank engaging?

Ann

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Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Second topic
From: "Chris Toy" <Chris_Toy@coconetme.org>

Linda wrote: I'm unsure why this wasn't anything they seemed to enjoy like they did reading aloud the play Anne Frank.

Linda, Perhaps the short books did not provide enough of a context to engage the
students in the powerful ideas presented in the books. In Anne Frank the
book take time to develop the characters so the students can empathize with
what is happening in her world. It seems that there was no world or
characters for your students to relate to, even though they understand
what's happening. Maybe it the difference between living something,
reading the book, and reading the cliff notes.

Chris Toy

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Linda wrote:
A recent idea bombed in class. During our study of W.W.II, I planned to
read aloud 3-4 picture books dealing with different aspects of the war. They
were "Terrible Things", "Hiroshima No Peeka", "Rose Blanc" and one about a
family visiting a Japanese internment camp years later (I can't remember the
title now).

Linda, Sometimes when we use picture books, we have to set the stage, helping our
concrete middle level thinkers to understand that we are not talking down to
them, or treating them like elementary kids, when we use picture books. I
used to pose it like this: People who think "big", like adults do,
understand that we all can learn from picture books.

Michelle

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From: Lahaskell@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Identifying Similarities and Differences

As a language arts teacher I have my students create metaphors and
analogies all the time in reading. However, I don't do it much in grammar
instruction or writing. I wonder if using graphic organizers is a part of the
breaking in classifying for writing process. Of course I try to Get them to
use metaphors in their descriptions while writing. So much of this makes
sense when teaching very specific curriculum. However, it becomes less clear
when students go off into writing. of their own topic.

Linda

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From: YAMES@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:18:18 EDT
Subject: [MWbooklist] Learning from the kids
Reply-To: MWbooklist@NS.SREB.ORG

I'm trying to read "A Handbook for Classroom Instruction that Works" as we have this discussion. It's the companion to the book.

http://www.ascd.org/readingroom/books/marzano2001_chapter1.html

I guess you'd call it professional development in a nutshell. Anyway, I'm just delving into "Module 1. Comparing" and there are some great questions that I can use to self-reflect.

Figure 1.1. Reflecting on My Current Beliefs and Practices

Comparing

"What is the purpose of asking students to compare?"

"What kinds of activities do I use to help students compare?"

I can think of a time that I asked students to compare, and I was pleased with the results. Why did it go well? I can think of a time that I asked students to compare, and I was not pleased with the results. Why did it not go well?

"What questions do I have about using comparing in my classroom?"

I think that I am also going to try rephrasing these questions and having the kids use them for themselves and also to help me evaluate how the learning is going. Something like--Think of a time when you used the idea of comparing when you were learning. Were you pleased with the results? If yes, tell why. If no, explain what happened."

I need to teach using comparing before I use questions to evaluate whether or not I'm on the right track. But the information I get from the kids will inform my teaching. Then I will be better able to know where we need to go next.

Back to the classroom and then on to module 2,

Juli

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John replied:

WOW. I completely missed this free, on-line material when I was searching for resources for our chat. Good job, Juli!

If you'll go to:

http://www.ascd.org/readingroom/books/marzano2001_toc.html

You'll find the TOC page for the Handbook. At least half the book is on-line, including most of the section introductions.

I've added this to our resource page, with links to the available sections.

John

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Juli:

I really like how you have applied some pretty straightforward questions to your own teaching and then asked your students to do the same. SOOO what responses did your students give you when you asked them what was the purpose in learning how to compare and contrast?

And did these responses give you adequate insight into your own planning?

A kinda parallel anecdote for you... In the world of rookie VPdom, I get to do such things as homework club (actually I elected to do this because I hoped that I might actually have a chance to connect with some of the discipline usual suspects)

Homework Club is for those kids who owe so much homework that they could never catch up and the deal is "if you come ALL the time for x amount of time, you will pass.."

Any how... I was struck that the kids who were in homework club professed to not know why they were there, did not know what they owed, had no homework and could not tell me how grades were determined in their class. On and on...

They were experts at undermining their own achievement and success. It has been my experience that failing students are enormously passive and have no clue as to what they need to know in order to succeed. They are masters at their own failure.

SOOO, when thinking about failing students can we assume that if we surface the skill that we are teaching and ask what is/was learned by teaching this skill we are engaging our students in a discussion of what are the the skills, the behaviors that students need to possess in order to succeed? And, when we our engage our students in simple and regular debriefing questions such as Juli's does this help to "pull kids into" the realm of scholarly thinking??

Ann

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> Any how... I was struck that the kids who were in homework club
> professed to not know why they were there, did not know what they
> owed, had no homework and could not tell me how grades were determined
> in their class. On and on...
>
> They were experts at undermining their own achievement and success. It
> has been my experience that failing students are enormously passive
> and have no clue as to what they need to know in order to succeed.
> They are masters at their own failure.

Ann and all,

I have been fascinated by the conversation so far! Ann, I think you are
right on with your comments above. I have heard kid after kid
say--truly sincerely--that they don't know why they failed a class, why
a teacher sent them to time out, etc. Along those lines, this quarter I
tried something that seems to counteract that ignorance.

After the first week in which the majority of my students turned in very
incomplete chapter projects or no chapter project at all for the novel
we are reading (I had an average of 4-8 people per class of 25 passing),
I started telling my students their grades every Monday after I've
entered the week's work. I shared with them the numbers of people
passing and the reasons why they and not the others were passing. I
have seen my kids become very diligent about their work habits, bending
over backwards to MAKE SURE I received their work. They have become
frustrated about the long climb out of the hole they dug, but I think
they have begun to appreciate how damaging a 0 can be to their grades.
This strategy has worked with kids who all year long have not turned
work in and seemed satisfied with F's.

I think as teachers we need to do more to educate our students about how
grades are figured, how someone earns a passing (A-C) grade as opposed
to a failing grade. I think honestly they just don't know, so they have
no incentive to change poor work habits.

The science teacher on my team has them enter grades weekly and compute
their averages (she is on a straight point system while I am on a
weighted category system). I think she has found that to be successful
as well.

Ellen

Ellen Berg
Turner Middle
St. Louis, MO

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From: "Marsha Ratzel" <marsha_ratzel@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Learning from the kids

I know that I've already said this, but I find the students are the best
source of information at the conclusion of a learning acitivity. It amazes
me when colleagues tell me that a significant number of students "didn't get
it". For example, yesterday a teacher was complaining that students were
able to take notes and synthesize multiple sources of information ---
despite his best efforts to find and provide high quality sources.

I asked him why he didn't go back and teach note taking, why he didn't teach
how the synthesize, how to summarize? As our conversation progressed, he
told me that he had assumed that these skills had been taught and acquired
by students in prior grades. And what it ended up coming down to, was this
teacher was unsure how to teach the more basic tools his students needed to
complete his activity.

I, of course, thought that was an immediate opening for telling him about
Marzano's book and offered to go over the chapter on notetaking/summarizing.
And he was geniunely relieved.....I don't think he knew how he was going
to accomplish this task. The book, coupled with the handbook, will give him
the research and data AND a way to bring that knowledge into application
with his students.

Now all we have to work on is the piece that deals with listening to what
kids are saying to us and believing them. I agree with my friend, some is
complaining and some is trying to evade work, but the kernal of truth is
there. I think that kernal will help us pick student's brains and
ultimately help them figure out what went on. It has been my experience,
although I am a real neophyte in these waters, that when my students learned
I was going to use their feedback to make my instruction more effective and
helped them understand what to tell me --- I got better, it became easier,
and we all learned more.

marsha

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lahaskell@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Second topic

In a message dated 4/25/02 5:39:44 PM, Baraswang@aol.com writes:

<< Are you really saying that they didn't appear engaged or moved and just
went
through the motions? And, how do you know that the lesson bombed? That is an
interesting question. Ask yourself :What made Anne Frank engaging?
Ann >>

Ann,

I found that the kids seemed to be just going through the motions. They
didn't seem eager to discuss either as a whole group or in smaller grouping.
With Anne Frank they were eager to volunteer for parts and wanted to discuss
it more. Yet, grade-wise things remained the same. I guess I like to see my
students eagerly taking part in the activities.

Linda

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Baraswang@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Second topic

Linda...

Ask 'em... What happened?

Ann

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Marsha:

I like what you said about listening to kids. Are there any protocals or
procedures one can fold into their classroom culture so that this type of
listening can evolve into a form of reflective thinking i.e taking
responsibility for one's own thinking?

Has anyone out there developed a deliberate way to do this? I think this type
of on-going skill is a nice companion to teaching the effective strategies.

Ann

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: YAMES@aol.com
Subject: [MWbooklist] Handbook

I've become so entranced with the reading I've done online in A Handbook for
Classroom Instruction that Works that I just ordered it. Even though it will
arrive after this discussion is over, I hope to keep reading and trying.
These are very dense books to read. Each page is full of things to think
about and implement.

I'm finding that there is lots of overlapping between many of the things I've
been teaching this year and the sections in the handbook. The ninth
section has to do with vocabulary and I'm really anxious to see what it says
and try using some ideas.I just wish they had put more of it online. Oh,
well....

Juli

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Baraswang@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Handbook

Put the book on your August "to do" pile!

I think that it is ironic that we are discussing this book at this point in
the year. Are we not making the famous educational mistake of changing the
tires while the car is moving?

I think this book is a good thing to read as we prepare for the year ahead...
However, I do think that a lot of what the book is suggesting that we do is
best launched at the beginning of the year when we establish expectations and
classroom procedures.

Can you identify some of the things that are most helpful in the handbook?

Ann

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eileen Bendixsen <eb@passporttoknowledge.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Handbook

ANN WROTE: I think this book is a good thing to read as we prepare for the year
ahead... However, I do think that a lot of what the book is suggesting
that we do is best launched at the beginning of the year when we
establish expectations and classroom procedures.

This is really not part of the discussion, but when I read this I
thought it would be a nice idea as we are all planning ideas for next
year to somehow have a discussion about some of the things we plan to do
for next year. Many times some of the things we do which are so
commonplace to ourselves could be a gold mine for someone else. The
discussion could really continue throughout the summer and into next
fall. I know we do this already to some extent, but something on larger
scale. While we are making our plans constantly think in the back of our
minds to share ideas with the list. This would also give anyone that
wanted to implement the idea time to plan it out and fit it into their
plans when they aren't juggling all of the day-to-day things we do during
the school year.

Eileen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Eileen - I think this would be a terrific idea. I would think we could post this over on the main list and it would generate lots of ideas because you're exactly right, as I see it.

marsha

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Deborah Bambino" <dbambino@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Learning from the kids

Marsha wrote...that when my students learned
> I was going to use their feedback to make my instruction more effective
and
> helped them understand what to tell me --- I got better, it became easier,
> and we all learned more.
A later post asked for a protocol to enlist student feedback...

I was embarassed and amazed to realize that it took me years before I asked
my kids why my efforts weren't working for them. First I took the step of
sharing with other adults and then eventually began to "debrief" with my
students. Here's some of what I learned:

--I gave too much information/too many directions at once.

--Sometimes, I just talked too fast, made too many assumptions about prior
knowledge...

--I didn't provide enough opportunity to stop and check for understanding
mid-stream.

My students were a bit worried about "hurting my feelings" when they shared
this information. We liked each other and they knew I was working really
hard, even if they didn't know what I was asking them to do. This was a huge
eye opener for me and I think it is a pretty generalizeable problem. We have
so much to cover and so little time that we try to rush the process.
My students' feedback, coupled with watching a video of my own teaching has
forced me to adopt a few steps in my work with students and or adults. ( In
the video, there's a clear example of a boy asking a question and my
answering him. He looks confused, but when I ask him if he understands, in a
clearly hopeful tone, he assures me that he "gets it," when he really does
not. OUCH!)

The first step, or rule, is what is called the "10 and 2" rule. Basically, I
try to talk for no more than 10 minutes, then I either have students rehash
together what they've heard, or spend 2 minutes writing or asking questions
or something interactive. The second thing I try to incorporate religiously
is a debrief, either written or oral with the group, recognizing that some
things work better for some than others. I always learn something about the
process and my instruction and the kids or adults learn about their
learning/processing style.

Hope this helps, it's not a protocol, more like an added step or two.

Debbie

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Rick Wormeli" <rwormeli@erols.com>
Subject: RE: [MWbooklist] Learning from the kids

Debbie -- I just want to echo your use of videotaping to analyze and improve
one's practice. I started doing it when I went through National Board
Certification in 1993-1994 and it has never ceased to open my eyes to
significant dynamics in my teaching and students' learning that I otherwise
had not noticed. I continue to do it at least once a year since then.

It's emotionally safe to videotape -- only the teacher sees it. It's
particularly effective if you list your own perceptions of your teaching
prior to viewing, perhaps in reference to district or national standards for
excellence. Maybe your goal is to track the number and type of interactions
you have with girls versus boys. Maybe it's to see if you're student or
teacher-centered. Maybe it's just to see if you communicate clearly. At
any rate, I can't recommend it highly enough. In years past, we've set up a
small cadre of folks in mentor situations in which we've found someone else
to videotape the class (as opposed to a fixed camera location) such a parent
volunteer, a retiree, or a colleague interested in analyzing her practice,
too). Another idea: Some administrators have asked teachers in the years of
their evaluation cycle to videotape a lesson, then offer the written
analysis as part of their professional development program for the year. In
many schools here, we set personal and professional goals. Videotaping and
analyzing practice often leads to significant growth.

-- Rick W.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: MAMASWIRLZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Handbook

In a message dated 4/28/02 5:37:53 AM, Baraswang@aol.com writes:

<< I think that it is ironic that we are discussing this book at this point
in
the year. Are we not making the famous educational mistake of changing the
tires while the car is moving? >>

Ann, I definately agree that teachers, especially in teams, should plan the
adoption of these approaches for the new year. However, I have also always
found it valuable to try some things out at the end of the year, after the
"tests", when there is a bit less pressure in some respects. Rick had talked
about mini-courses (on the regular list) as one way of engaging kids through
the end of the year. So this might be a perfect time to experiment with some
new ideas.

Naomi

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Anne Jolly <ajollygal@yahoo.com>
Subject: [MWbooklist] Which strategies?

Just a curiosity question as I go through Marzano's
nine effective strategies. Are there any of these that
you haven't used in some form or other, and did any of
you notice that these were more effective with your
students than other strategies? What's the common
denominator here?

Anne

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marsha Ratzel" <marsha_ratzel@hotmail.com>
Subject: [MWbooklist] Summarizing---Another Strategy

As I thought about this chapter, I began to wonder what I really knew about summarizing. It's something I don't know how I learned it going through school --- it probably had something to do with my HS debate team years. And I certainly think it was a skill that I acquired through considerable trial and error.

And I also know that this is a skill that I often wish was stronger in my students. I guess that's why I wasn't surprised when it was the 2nd highest ranked instructional strategy. It seemed pretty obvious that if my students could summarize that they'd be better equipped at understanding the ideas. What didn't seem obvious was a methodical, tried and true way to accomplish summarizing.

Remember I'm not a language arts teachers, so this is very foreign territory for me. It's not intuitive to me what to do to help others learn something that seemed automatic. So I found this chapter especially important to considering how to improve my practice. I thought the delete, substitute and keep steps were pragmatic and would work well with 7th graders.

I was excited to try it out. So I loaded up a sample passage into my trusty Word file.....used some of the edit features to cross out(it's the strikethrough command in the Format Font dialogue box), the bold command to restate in my owns words....and was able to show the steps of summarizing. I used this file as a Think Aloud activity for the 7th graders where I stepped through all the processes. Next I asked students to do another file with me, as a class, on the SmartBoard. That worked out pretty well and they were very attentive to what I was doing --- I think it's because they knew how but not how to put all the skills together. It seemed that they'd learned the pieces in isolation maybe(????) but not how to fit the individual skills together. The Rule-Based Summary Strategy helped me to help them piece it together.

Has anybody else ever felt this way? You know students get each piece when it stands alone, but they don't know how to take it to the next level. That is really different from when they don't even know the pieces and it took me quite a while to distinguish between the two conditions.

But back to my 7th graders who were summarizing. I was able to show them the summary steps and infused technology all at the same time. (I just couldn't resist. It was such a golden opportunity to use technology to amplify my learning objective, yet disappear as the focus of the lesson!!!!!!!!) Lastly I had loaded another Word file into the student share folder for them to copy into their workspace and try it out on their own. After they completed the three steps, I asked them to write a summary at the bottom of my exercise file. Now, everyone's efforts weren't perfect, but closer!!!!!!!!!!! And they seemed to "get" the process. I'll bet that, as their classroom teacher has time to do more practices, they'll get pretty good at summarizing. Even before the end of this year.

Do you think summarizing is a big part of your content? Is it more of a formal thing or an informal thing? I'm anxious to hear what you've done.

marsha

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lahaskell@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Which strategies?

As a language arts teacher, I find I don't use the generating and testing
a hypotheses as stated in the book. Of course all writing must have a thesis
/theme (or hypothesis) but my students don't "test" it. They provide
support/reasons for the idea. This is still quite different from the approach
in science, for example.

Linda

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lynda Belt" <LBelt@puyallup.k12.wa.us>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Summarizing---Another Strategy

I feel the note taking and summarizing is vital for improvement in student learing. I liked the recent comment made about how we all assume the students come to us knowing these basic skills. And we often never have really thought about how to direct teach these skills. On our state tests (last years) summarizing was a skill that many fell down on. In fact only 18% of the seventh graders taking the test received the full two points possible. One of the key points I think about summarizing is that the students must be able to differentiate between the main idea and the supporting ideas and details. I really like how this book emphasizes that in order for students to be successful in skills in this book such as note taking and summarizing, on similarities and differences and several others, they must have direct instruction first, explaining the process, break it down, then lead them through guided practice, and again and again, It is as you say Marsha, a difficult jump for many to be able to just do it on their own after being "shown".

I like the techniques on summarizing that Marzano uses. I also like the Step Up to Writing program process. It is aimed at lower end or beginning writers but for many of us middle school educators, those are our students.

It includes four steps. A. The first is to write a topic sentence including the following:

1. The first part of the topic sentence identifies specifically what is being summarized

Ex: Reptiles, a New True Book by Lois Ballard

2. The second part of the topic sentence is the verb that conveys the purpose and tone of the item being summarized

Examples Reptiles ,a New True Book by Lois Ballard explains
"The Long Goodbye", Newsweek, October 2, 1995 illustrates

The movie Forest Gump entertains

3. The third part of the topic sentence finishes the thought, identifies the big idea, the big concept, the main idea of the item being summarized

Examples: Reptiles, a New True Book, by Lois Ballard explains why many kinds of snakes are helpful.

Unit 7 in my social studies book describes the home of three Indian tribes.

This first step can be done on a three fold template. or "burrito" fold, where each column is labeled.
Identify, Verb, Finish the Thought

B. The second step is to rewrite this sentence.( if you used the folded columned paper.)
C. The third step is to write a fact outline. For the item you are summarizing list the ideas, the facts that are important to keep in the summary - (this is where the Marzano's deleting, substituting and keep come in) Have students only write two to three words for each "keeper".
D. Step four is to rewrite these facts into the body of the summary and combining with the topic sentence.

I like the added steps of writing the topic sentence. You can give students a verb list, and sometimes working backwards from the fact outline is necessary for them to pick the verb - whether the item's purpose is to entertain, to describe, to explain, to recommend, to list, to define, etc.

Lynda Belt
lbelt@puyallup.k12.wa.us

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Norton <jcroftn1@mindspring.com>
Subject: [MWbooklist] Questions hang in the air!

Hi, booklist participants...

I've just posted the conversation up through early Monday morning. I
see that several questions hang in the air!

Hope you'll have time to check out the back conversation at:

http://www.middleweb.com/MWLresources/marzchat3.html

and see if you can pick up from there. Ann, for example, posted a
question for Juli. And Ann with an "E" asked if there are any of
Marzano's strategies that you haven't used.

Jump back in!

John

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Osrub@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Summarizing---Another Strategy

I am involved as a National Trainer for Project CRISS. The summarizing
strategy is included in the workshop. Frequently I have teachers from one
district, covering grades 3-8 in one workshop. I usually ask where
summarizing is taught. Nine out of ten times everyone thinks that it was
done in the previous years. Even the 3rd grade teachers think it was taught
in 2nd. My experience is that we assume that the students know what a
summary is, and if it's too short we say "add more" and if it's too long we
say "shorten it." BUT we never teach what it is to summarize. I really
appreciate the modeling that is demonstrated in the book and feel very
strongly that we are not doing enough of it.

Susan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: YAMES@aol.com
Subject: [MWbooklist] oops! I forgot to reply

Ann wrote: Juli, I really like how you have applied some pretty straightforward questions to
your own teaching and then asked your students to do the same. SOOO what
responses did your students give you when you asked them what was the
purpose in learning how to compare and contrast?

Oops, John's right. I forgot to reply to Ann's question.

There were no profound answers from the kids. They were very straight
forward.

I asked them: Think of a time when you used the idea of comparing when you
were learning. Were you pleased with the results? If yes, tell why. If no,
explain what happened."

They talked about how they had used comparison and contrast with venn
diagrams to look at characters in a story. Figuring out whether or not they
were pleased with the results was a bit of a puzzle for them.

So we've decided to keep trying to use these kind of questions, "Think of a
time when...." and "Were you pleased with the results? Why or why not?" I
think they need more experience in thinking this way about their work.

Juli

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Anne Jolly <ajollygal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Summarizing---Another Strategy

Summarizing was a part of my academic life all the way
through high school. My English teacher (who just
also happened to be my mother) believed in being able
to summarize what you read. She would read and comment
on all summaries she assigned and return them for
revision. We corrected and redid - she reexamined and
returned them again until we got it right. Her
thinking was that summarizing was a kind of
disciplined thinking that forced you to get to the
meat of the meaning.

Now, my mother started teaching before WWII, when
teachers were not allowed to be married. So
summarizing is obviously not a new idea. It helped me
tremendously, so I used it with my science students.
The only problem was . . . I just told them to
summarize. I never told them how - just assumed
someone else had taught them that skill. As a result
my students hated summarizing and they didn't do it
well. That's what I like about the Marzano approach to
summarizing. He provides a sort of process that helps
to engage the kids in thinking.

Anne

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Anne Jolly <ajollygal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Which strategies?

Hmmmm . . . I wish I knew more about hypotheses
generating and testing from Marzano's standpoint,
Linda. I am in a faraway city - Denver - and don't
have the book with me.

To give you my take on this - which may or may not
jive with Marzano's - I had kids generate hypotheses
about everything - even to making a guess as to what
the author was going to say next in the text they
tried to avoid reading. "What do you think is going to
happen next?" was my standard question. The testing
could be formal - such as in science experimentation -
or informal - such as checking to see what the author
actually DID say next.

I think one of the best uses of generating hypotheses
is stimulating curiosity and imagination. SO many
middle schoolers have lost it by their early
adolescent years.

Anne

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marsha Ratzel" <marsha_ratzel@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [MWbooklist] Videotaping

Yesterday we were just discussing how videotaping could be used in our district. One of our ideas is to use videotaping in stages: first just for ourselves; progressing to sharing what we learned about ourselves with others, but not necessarily showing them our tape; and trying to end up being confident to show the video to others.

Another thought we tossed around was how to view the video. Like Rick, I started videotaping as a part of National Boards and I thought the sieve of their rubric focused my attention. We are studying Charlotte Danielson's Framework and use several of her rubric strands --- it gives you something specific to watch for, characteristics to measure your performance against, and another level to try and achieve. I'm sure there are lots of possibilities for measurements....I just thought the focus of the viewing was what was powerful.

Lastly, I used videotaping to work with students. Especially at the beginning of the year. It helped them to see what they were doing and then to change their behavior. It was most helpful to them in learning how to act inside a cooperative group---performing the assigned roles---as well as learning how to come into the classroom and initiate their beginning class procedure. We had fun watching the tape and then each of them putting up a score for the performance --- sort of like in the gymnastics competition. But the real proof in the pudding was the way they changed over time and were able to "see" what I wanted.

marsha

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marsha Ratzel" <marsha_ratzel@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Summarizing
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:09:03 -0500

Anne... I think your mother was a wise woman and the repeated discipline is probably
what made it become an automatic part of your toolbox. Even though we're
talking about summarizing, the data about how many times we need to practice
before we achieve some sort of proficiency proves your mother's approach as
well. p 67 suggests that students need "....upwards of 24 times to reach
80-percent competency". So this repeated practice, with directed feedback
is wonderful.

Summarizing was a part of my academic life all the way
through high school. My English teacher (who just
also happened to be my mother) believed in being able
to summarize what you read. She would read and comment
on all summaries she assigned and return them for
revision. We corrected and redid - she reexamined and
returned them again until we got it right. Her
thinking was that summarizing was a kind of
disciplined thinking that forced you to get to the
meat of the meaning.

I think assuming that the skill has been taught in a previous grade is a
very common problem --- and that faulty assumption isn't limited to just
summarizing. Did you find that you figured that out the hard way just
because they hated it and couldn't do well? Or did you know to pre-assess
them and if so, how did you do that?

In the Handbook they suggest a rubric for summarizing that I thought was
helpful to me in assessing student work. It uses a 4 point scale....
4- The student identifies the main pattern throughout the reading as well
as the minor patterns.
3 - The student identifies the main pattern.
2 -- The student addresses some of the features of the main pattern, but
excludes some critical aspects.
1---The student does not address the main pattern
0---Not enough information to make a judgment.

Now, my mother started teaching before WWII, when
teachers were not allowed to be married. So
summarizing is obviously not a new idea. It helped me
tremendously, so I used it with my science students.
The only problem was . . . I just told them to
summarize. I never told them how - just assumed
someone else had taught them that skill. As a result
my students hated summarizing and they didn't do it
well. That's what I like about the Marzano approach to
summarizing. He provides a sort of process that helps
to engage the kids in thinking.

I don't know what you think about these comments, but it seems like we're
thinking along the same lines.

marsha

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:22:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anne Jolly <ajollygal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Summarizing

I think we're thinking along the same lines, too,
Marsha! Remember that I wrote yesterday that I was in
Denver and didn't have my copy of the Marzano book
with me? Well, today I was working with teachers from
Arizona and Colorado. One of them mentioned
summarizing and how important it was. Feeling quite
knowledgeable I asked, "Have you read what Marzano has
to say about this in his new book?" Two of the three
immediately pulled out copies of the book, and the
third one had already read it and loved it. Talk
about a small world!

Just wanted you to know that colleagues everywhere are
reading and talking about summarizing - right along
with us!

Anne

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lahaskell@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:26:23 EDT
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Which strategies?
Reply-To: MWbooklist@NS.SREB.ORG

Anne,

The idea of predicting what will happen next is one point that was also
mentioned in Mosaics of Thought. I hadn't thought about that technique as a
type of hypothesis and testing. Your comment makes me want to go back and
compare the two books on this point.

Linda

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:05:09 -0700
From: KathleenA Renfrew <karenfrew@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Videotaping
Reply-To: MWbooklist@NS.SREB.ORG
Marsha Ratzel wrote:

>
> One of our ideas is to use videotaping in stages: first just for ourselves;
> progressing to sharing what we learned about ourselves with others, but not
> necessarily showing them our tape; and trying to end up being confident to
> show the video to others.
>

I think this is a terrific idea. I too did some videotaping as part of my
becoming an NBCT. Watching the videotape was very powerful. I was able to see
things I did well. I was also able to see things that I would never admit to
doing in 1,000,000 years. Once I became aware of some of the things I did I was
able to make a concentrated effort to change them.

>
> Another thought we tossed around was how to view the video. Like Rick, I
> started videotaping as a part of National Boards and I thought the sieve of
> their rubric focused my attention. We are studying Charolotte Danielson's
> Framework and use several of her rubric strands --- it gives you something
> specific to watch for, characteristics to measure your performance against,
> and another level to try and achieve. I'm sure there are lots of
> possibilities for measurements....I just thought the focus of the viewing
> was what was powerful.
>

I wish I could get other people on our staff to consider doing this. I would
be willing to be a guinea pig and go first. Using a rubric such as marsha
describes sounds awesome.

Kathy from VT

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Deborah Bambino" <dbambino@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Videotaping
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 04:32:42 -0400

The National School Reform Faculty ( NSRF), has video protocols that can be
used to focus on specific questions that the presenting teacher selects, or
it can be left to the viewer's disgression, if that's what the presenter
requests. We also have a choice about whether we focus on the students' or
the teacher's behavior on the tape. Using tape is powerful, but you have to
build the trust and set the parameters to make sure folks feel safe. I never
watched my tape alone, it was beneficial to watch it with others, but I
really trusted the colleagues in my CFG who joined me as I viewed my lesson.

It was also really powerful to watch it with my students. I began watching
it with them because I had promised them they could see themselves on tape,
but it ended up being an excellent conversation starter after we got past
the giggles and self-consciousness.

Debbie

P.S. I would now advocate looking at tape with parents too, but I am not in
a classroom.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Baraswang@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 20:36:03 EDT
Subject: [MWbooklist] Marzano book

Hi Folks:

I don't know about you but many teachers in my building are beginning to gear
up for that famous "end of the year project", final grades, reflections and
even regrets.
SOOO,
In the spririt of "next year things will be different..." ask your students
to create a grading system that they think is "fair." Perhaps this can be
done as a way to tidy up, extend, deepen your favorite last unit or team
project. Once these students generated systems have been created, teachers
might explain the 4 causes of success as described on page 50 (Ability,
effort, other people, luck). Ask your students to look at their grading
systems and determine what these "say" about these for characteristics of
success and achievement.

I had an interesting discussion with an intern in school psychology the other
day and she shared with me an article about deeply despairing kids. In
psychological terms, these children often exhbit the behaviors of students
who do not achieve. When we got to talking I realized that what she termed
attribution theory are the same behaviors that Marzano dicusses regarding
success. Interesting, don't you think??

Ann

----------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Rick Wormeli" <rwormeli@erols.com>
Subject: RE: [MWbooklist] Learning from the kids

Debbie -- I just want to echo your use of videotaping to analyze and improve
one's practice. I started doing it when I went through National Board
Certification in 1993-1994 and it has never ceased to open my eyes to
significant dynamics in my teaching and students' learning that I otherwise
had not noticed. I continue to do it at least once a year since then.

It's emotionally safe to videotape -- only the teacher sees it. It's
particularly effective if you list your own perceptions of your teaching
prior to viewing, perhaps in reference to district or national standards for
excellence. Maybe your goal is to track the number and type of interactions
you have with girls versus boys. Maybe it's to see if you're student or
teacher-centered. Maybe it's just to see if you communicate clearly. At
any rate, I can't recommend it highly enough. In years past, we've set up a
small cadre of folks in mentor situations in which we've found someone else
to videotape the class (as opposed to a fixed camera location) such a parent
volunteer, a retiree, or a colleague interested in analyzing her practice,
too). Another idea: Some administrators have asked teachers in the years of
their evaluation cycle to videotape a lesson, then offer the written
analysis as part of their professional development program for the year. In
many schools here, we set personal and professional goals. Videotaping and
analyzing practice often leads to significant growth.

-- Rick W.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 02 13:06:15 -0500
From: John Norton <jcroftn1@mindspring.com>

Hi, booklist participants...

I've just posted the conversation up through early Monday morning. I
see that several questions hang in the air!

Hope you'll have time to check out the back conversation at:

http://www.middleweb.com/MWLresources/marzchat3.html

and see if you can pick up from there. Ann, for example, posted a
question for Juli. And Ann with an "E" asked if there are any of
Marzano's strategies that you haven't used.

Jump back in!

John

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 02 16:02:26 -0400
From: Eileen Bendixsen <eb@passporttoknowledge.com>

"I think this book is a good thing to read as we prepare for the year
ahead... However, I do think that a lot of what the book is suggesting
that we do is best launched at the beginning of the year when we
establish expectations and classroom procedures."

This is really not part of the discussion, but when I read this I
thought it would be a nice idea as we are all planning ideas for next
year to somehow have a discussion about some of the things we plan to do
for next year. Many times some of the things we do which are so
commonplace to ourselves could be a gold mine for someone else. The
discussion could really continue throughout the summer and into next
fall. I know we do this already to some extent, but something on larger
scale. While we are making our plans constantly think in the back of our
minds to share ideas with the list. This would also give anyone that
wanted to implement the idea time to plan it out and fit it into their
plans when they aren't juggling all of the day-to-day things we do during
the school year.

Eileen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marsha Ratzel" <marsha_ratzel@hotmail.com>
Subject: [MWbooklist] Summarizing---Another Strategy

As I thought about this chapter, I began to wonder what I really knew about
summarizing. It's something I don't know how I learned it going through
school --- it probably had something to do with my HS debate team years.
And I certainly think it was a skill that I acquired through considerable
trial and error.

And I also know that this is a skill that I often wish was stronger in my
students. I guess that's why I wasn't surprised when it was the 2nd highest
ranked instructional strategy. It seemed pretty obvious that if my students
could summarize that they'd be better equipped at understanding the ideas.
What didn't seem obvious was a methodical, tried and true way to accomplish
summarizing.

Remember I'm not a language arts teachers, so this is very foreign territory
for me. It's not intuitive to me what to do to help others learn something
that seemed automatic. So I found this chapter especially important to
considering how to improve my practice. I thought the delete, substitute
and keep steps were pragmatic and would work well with 7th graders.

I was excited to try it out. So I loaded up a sample passage into my trusty
Word file.....used some of the edit features to cross out(it's the
strikethrough command in the Format Font dialogue box), the bold command to
restate in my owns words....and was able to show the steps of summarizing.
I used this file as a Think Aloud activity for the 7th graders where I
stepped through all the processes. Next I asked students to do another file
with me, as a class, on the SmartBoard. That worked out pretty well and
they were very attentive to what I was doing --- I think it's because they
knew how but not how to put all the skills together. It seemed that they'd
learned the pieces in isolation maybe(????) but not how to fit the
individual skills together. The Rule-Based Summary Strategy helped me to
help them piece it together.

Has anybody else ever felt this way? You know students get each piece when
it stands alone, but they don't know how to take it to the next level. That
is really different from when they don't even know the pieces and it took me
quite a while to distinguish between the two conditions.

But back to my 7th graders who were summarizing. I was able to show them
the summary steps and infused technology all at the same time. (I just
couldn't resist. It was such a golden opportunity to use technology to
amplify my learning objective, yet disappear as the focus of the
lesson!!!!!!!!) Lastly I had loaded another Word file into the student
share folder for them to copy into their workspace and try it out on their
own. After they completed the three steps, I asked them to write a summary
at the bottom of my exercise file. Now, everyone's efforts weren't perfect,
but closer!!!!!!!!!!! And they seemed to "get" the process. I'll bet that,
as their classroom teacher has time to do more practices, they'll get pretty
good at summarizing. Even before the end of this year.

Do you think summarizing is a big part of your content? Is it more of a
formal thing or an informal thing? I'm anxious to hear what you've done.

marsha

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lahaskell@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 02 17:24:38 EDT

As a language arts teacher, I find I don't use the generating and testing
a hypotheses as stated in the book. Of course all writing must have a thesis
/theme (or hypothesis) but my students don't "test" it. They provide
support/reasons for the idea. This is still quite different from the approach
in science, for example.

Linda

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 02 14:46:32 -0700
From: "Lynda Belt" <LBelt@puyallup.k12.wa.us>

from Lynda Belt, Puyallup School District on summarizing

I feel the note taking and summarizing is vital for improvement in student
learning. I liked the recent comment made about how we all assume the
students come to us knowing these basic skills. And we often never have
really thought about how to direct teach these skills. On our state tests
(last years) summarizing was a skill that many fell down on. In fact
only 18% of the seventh graders taking the test received the full two
points possible. One of the key points I think about summarizing is that
the students must be able to differentiate between the main idea and the
supporting ideas and details. I really like how this book emphasizes
that in order for students to be successful in skills in this book such as
note taking and summarizing, on similarities and differences and several
others, they must have direct instruction first, explaining the process,
break it down, then lead them through guided practice, and again and
again, It is as you say Marsha, a difficult jump for many to be able to
just do it on their own after being "shown".

I like the techniques on summarizing that Marzano uses. I also like the
Step Up to Writing program process. It is aimed at lower end or
beginning writers but for many of us middle school educators, those are
our students.

It includes four steps. A. The first is to write a topic sentence
including the following:

1. The first part of the topic sentence identifies specifically what is
being summarized

Ex: Reptiles, a New True Book by Lois Ballard

2. The second part of the topic sentence is the verb that conveys the
purpose and tone of the item being summarized

Examples Reptiles ,a New True Book by Lois Ballard explains
"The Long Goodbye", Newsweek, October 2, 1995 illustrates

The movie Forest Gump entertains

3. The third part of the topic sentence finishes the thought, identifies
the big idea, the big concept, the main idea of the item being summarized

Examples: Reptiles, a New True Book, by Lois Ballard explains why many
kinds of snakes are helpful.

Unit 7 in my social studies book describes the home of three Indian
tribes.

This first step can be done on a three fold template. or "burrito" fold,
where each column is labeled.
Identify, Verb, Finish the Thought

B. The second step is to rewrite this sentence.( if you used the folded
columned paper.)
C. The third step is to write a fact outline. For the item you are
summarizing list the ideas, the facts that are important to keep in the
summary - (this is where the Marzano's deleting, substituting and keep
come in) Have students only write two to three words for each "keeper".
D. Step four is to rewrite these facts into the body of the summary and
combining with the topic sentence.

I like the added steps of writing the topic sentence. You can give
students a verb list, and sometimes working backwards from the fact
outline is necessary for them to pick the verb - whether the item's
purpose is to entertain, to describe, to explain, to recommend, to list,
to define, etc.

Lynda Belt
lbelt@puyallup.k12.wa.us

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Osrub@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Summarizing---Another Strategy

I am involved as a National Trainer for Project CRISS. The summarizing
strategy is included in the workshop. Frequently I have teachers from one
district, covering grades 3-8 in one workshop. I usually ask where
summarizing is taught. Nine out of ten times everyone thinks that it was
done in the previous years. Even the 3rd grade teachers think it was taught
in 2nd. My experience is that we assume that the students know what a
summary is, and if it's too short we say "add more" and if it's too long we
say "shorten it." BUT we never teach what it is to summarize. I really
appreciate the modeling that is demonstrated in the book and feel very
strongly that we are not doing enough of it.

Susan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: YAMES@aol.com
Subject: [MWbooklist] oops! I forgot to reply

Ann wrote:

<<Juli:

<I really like how you have applied some pretty straightforward questions to
your
<own teaching and then asked your students to do the same. SOOO what
responses <did your students give you when you asked them what was the
purpose in learning <how to compare and contrast?>>

Oops, John's right. I forgot to reply to Ann's question.

There were no profound answers from the kids. They were very straight
forward.

I asked them: Think of a time when you used the idea of comparing when you
were learning. Were you pleased with the results? If yes, tell why. If no,
explain what happened."

They talked about how they had used comparison and contrast with venn
diagrams to look at characters in a story. Figuring out whether or not they
were pleased with the results was a bit of a puzzle for them.

So we've decided to keep trying to use these kind of questions, "Think of a
time when...." and "Were you pleased with the results? Why or why not?" I
think they need more experience in thinking this way about their work.

Juli

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Anne Jolly <ajollygal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Summarizing---Another Strategy

Summarizing was a part of my academic life all the way
through high school. My English teacher (who just
also happened to be my mother) believed in being able
to summarize what you read. She would read and comment
on all summaries she assigned and return them for
revision. We corrected and redid - she reexamined and
returned them again until we got it right. Her
thinking was that summarizing was a kind of
disciplined thinking that forced you to get to the
meat of the meaning.

Now, my mother started teaching before WWII, when
teachers were not allowed to be married. So
summarizing is obviously not a new idea. It helped me
tremendously, so I used it with my science students.
The only problem was . . . I just told them to
summarize. I never told them how - just assumed
someone else had taught them that skill. As a result
my students hated summarizing and they didn't do it
well. That's what I like about the Marzano approach to
summarizing. He provides a sort of process that helps
to engage the kids in thinking.

Anne

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Anne Jolly <ajollygal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Which strategies?

Hmmmm . . . I wish I knew more about hypotheses
generating and testing from Marzano's standpoint,
Linda. I am in a faraway city - Denver - and don't
have the book with me.

To give you my take on this - which may or may not
jive with Marzano's - I had kids generate hypotheses
about everything - even to making a guess as to what
the author was going to say next in the text they
tried to avoid reading. "What do you think is going to
happen next?" was my standard question. The testing
could be formal - such as in science experimentation -
or informal - such as checking to see what the author
actually DID say next.

I think one of the best uses of generating hypotheses
is stimulating curiosity and imagination. SO many
middle schoolers have lost it by their early
adolescent years.

Anne

_____________________________________________________________

From: "Marsha Ratzel" <marsha_ratzel@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [MWbooklist] Videotaping

Yesterday we were just discussing how this could be used in our district.
One of our ideas is to use videotaping in stages: first just for ourselves;
progressing to sharing what we learned about ourselves with others, but not
necessarily showing them our tape; and trying to end up being confident to
show the video to others.

Another thought we tossed around was how to view the video. Like Rick, I
started videotaping as a part of National Boards and I thought the sieve of
their rubric focused my attention. We are studying Charolotte Danielson's
Framework and use several of her rubric strands --- it gives you something
specific to watch for, characteristics to measure your performance against,
and another level to try and achieve. I'm sure there are lots of
possibilities for measurements....I just thought the focus of the viewing
was what was powerful.

Lastly, I used videotaping to work with students. Especially at the
beginning of the year. It helped them to see what they were doing and then
to change their behavior. It was most helpful to them in learning how to
act inside a cooperative group---performing the assigned roles---as well as
learning how to come into the classroom and initiate their beginning class
procedure. We had fun watching the tape and then each of them putting up a
score for the performance --- sort of like in the gymnastics competition.
But the real proof in the pudding was the way they changed over time and
were able to "see" what I wanted.

marsha

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marsha Ratzel" <marsha_ratzel@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Summarizing

Anne: I think your mother was a wise woman and the repeated discipline is probably
what made it become an automatic part of your toolbox. Even though we're
talking about summarizing, the data about how many times we need to practice
before we achieve some sort of proficiency proves your mother's approach as
well. p 67 suggests that students need "....upwards of 24 times to reach
80-percent competency". So this repeated practice, with directed feedback
is wonderful.

I think assuming that the skill has been taught in a previous grade is a
very common problem --- and that faulty assumption isn't limited to just
summarizing. Did you find that you figured that out the hard way just
because they hated it and couldn't do well? Or did you know to pre-assess
them and if so, how did you do that?

In the Handbook they suggest a rubric for summarizing that I thought was
helpful to me in assessing student work. It uses a 4 point scale....
4- The student identifies the main pattern throughout the reading as well
as the minor patterns.
3 - The student identifies the main pattern.
2 -- The student addresses some of the features of the main pattern, but
excludes some critical aspects.
1---The student does not address the main pattern
0---Not enough information to make a judgment.

I don't know what you think about these comments, but it seems like we're
thinking along the same lines.

marsha

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Anne Jolly <ajollygal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Summarizing

I think we're thinking along the same lines, too,
Marsha! Remember that I wrote yesterday that I was in
Denver and didn't have my copy of the Marzano book
with me? Well, today I was working with teachers from
Arizona and Colorado. One of them mentioned
summarizing and how important it was. Feeling quite
knowledgeable I asked, "Have you read what Marzano has
to say about this in his new book?" Two of the three
immediately pulled out copies of the book, and the
third one had already read it and loved it. Talk
about a small world!

Just wanted you to know that colleagues everywhere are
reading and talking about summarizing - right along
with us!

Anne

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lahaskell@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 02 19:26:23 EDT
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Which strategies?
Reply-To: MWbooklist@NS.SREB.ORG

Anne,

The idea of predicting what will happen next is one point that was also
mentioned in Mosaics of Thought. I hadn't thought about that technique as a
type of hypothesis and testing. Your comment makes me want to go back and compare the two books on this point.

Linda

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: KathleenA Renfrew <karenfrew@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Videotaping

Marsha Ratzel wrote:

> One of our ideas is to use videotaping in stages: first just for ourselves;
> progressing to sharing what we learned about ourselves with others, but not
> necessarily showing them our tape; and trying to end up being confident to
> show the video to others.
>

I think this is a terrific idea. I too did some videotaping as part of my
becoming an NBCT. Watching the videotape was very powerful. I was able to see
things I did well. I was also able to see things that I would never admit to
doing in 1,000,000 years. Once I became aware of some of the things I did I was
able to make a concentrated effort to change them.

>
> Another thought we tossed around was how to view the video. Like Rick, I
> started videotaping as a part of National Boards and I thought the sieve of
> their rubric focused my attention. We are studying Charolotte Danielson's
> Framework and use several of her rubric strands --- it gives you something
> specific to watch for, characteristics to measure your performance against,
> and another level to try and achieve. I'm sure there are lots of
> possibilities for measurements....I just thought the focus of the viewing
> was what was powerful.
>

I wish I could get other people on our staff to consider doing this. I would
be willing to be a guinea pig and go first. Using a rubric such as marsha
describes sounds awesome.

Kathy from VT

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Deborah Bambino" <dbambino@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [MWbooklist] Videotaping

The National School Reform Faculty ( NSRF), has video protocols that can be
used to focus on specific questions that the presenting teacher selects, or
it can be left to the viewer's disgression, if that's what the presenter
requests. We also have a choice about whether we focus on the students' or
the teacher's behavior on the tape. Using tape is powerful, but you have to
build the trust and set the parameters to make sure folks feel safe. I never
watched my tape alone, it was beneficial to watch it with others, but I
really trusted the colleagues in my CFG who joined me as I viewed my lesson.

It was also really powerful to watch it with my students. I began watching
it with them because I had promised them they could see themselves on tape,
but it ended up being an excellent conversation starter after we got past
the giggles and self-consciousness.

Debbie

P.S. I would now advocate looking at tape with parents too, but I am not in
a classroom.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Baraswang@aol.com
Subject: [MWbooklist] Marzano book

Hi Folks:

I don'tknow about you but many teachers in my building are beginning to gear up for that famous "end of the year project", final grades, reflections and
even regrets.

SOOO,

In the spririt of "next year things will be different..." ask your students
to create a grading system that they think is "fair." Perhaps this can be
done as a way to tidy up, extend, deepen your favorite last unit or team
project. Once these students generated systems have been created, teachers
might explain the 4 causes of success as described on page 50 (Ability,
effort, other people, luck). Ask your students to look at their grading
systems and determine what these "say" about these for characteristics of
success and achievement.

I had an interesting discussion with an intern in school psychology the other
day and she shared with me an article about deeply despairing kids. In
psychological terms, these children often exhbit the behaviors of students
who do not achieve. When we got to talking I realized that what she termed
attribution theory are the same behaviors that Marzano dicusses regarding
success. Interesting, don't you think??

Ann

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Norton <jcroftn1@mindspring.com>
Subject: [MWbooklist] Closing up shop

Well...it wasn't all that bright, was it, to take on a book with this level of complexity in April? I apologize!

Perhaps we can return to some of Marzano's ideas and issues in the summer. Meanwhile, Ann had a good idea, which she posted on the main list so everyone can join in. Maybe some of you can try it out...

ANN WROTE:

As we end the discussion of the Marzano Book, might some of you try the following discussion launcher among your colleagues and friends?

Ask them to: "Think back to this year. Identify a teaching strategy that they felt was a stunning "sure fire" success. Ask them to give you the context of this strategy (E.g., when in the history of the year it was taught, why they selected this strategy, etc.)
How did they know it was successful? What did they learn about themselves as teachers from this strategy and what did they learn about their students as learners from this strategy?"

To make this mini-survey a bit of a test of the Marzano Essential Nine, you do not need to reference the book when you pose the question. Gather your results and post...Let us see what we get.

The discussion ended here.

Back to the main page for this book discussion

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